The Sky’s the Limit- PBEM GC 41 jubjub (Axis) vs. M60A3TTS (Soviet)

[M60A3TTS]

Week 14

Activity in the Leningrad area settled down this week. Axis ground forces remain south of the Neva River.

German ground attacks took placed around Orel. Air bombing missions resulted in the Axis loss of 425 men and 25 guns belonging to the 14th Motorized Division. This division was then compelled to retreat from massed Soviet rifle divisions.


As was mentioned a while ago in the tech forum, no fuel was available to the Sevastopol air base. The fortress is isolated at this stage.


Air losses were 41 Axis to 259 Soviet. Still manageable here.

[Rexzapper]

All those thorough explanations about the pilots and how air warfare works in the game are very appreciated. Most of them are really useful when planning air strategy, and yet they are not explained anywhere in the manual. Thanks

[Mac Linehan]

M60A3TTS-

An absolutely outstanding explanation and analysis of how the air war works; I am just learning but really appreciate the detail; the air war is a major part of the game for me.

There is an section (bolded below) that I do not understand:

Week 13

Now that some regiments are at full strength, we can look to send a few formations to the reserves.

Here is one of them.
Image

Now since all pilots have 50 experience, none of them will get any value from training. So what would be the point?

Well, since we have a full 20 pilots and planes, the unit that comes out of the SR will have the same unit experience level as the one that went in. The difference though is the pilot data will all be changed.

This unit has an experience level of 63. Let us suppose that when the unit comes out of the SR, 18 of the 20 pilots have an experience level of 63. Pilot #19 gets experience level 43. What experience level does pilot #20 get? The answer of course is 83. So, the lead flight #1 pilot of this unit will go up +7 in experience along with the other 11 in his flight when in combat benefit the same. Meanwhile the pilot with experience of 43 gets put in the second flight with a skill of 63, so he benefits quite nicely...

Would you please elaborate or clairify as to how the above results are done? I would be very grateful, Sir.

...So all in all we get an improved fighter unit from the SR, not really from training, but from the law of averages. As we lose pilots and unit experience drops off, we will be able to disband these reserve on-map formations, put in the pilots to get the experience level into the low 60's, then off to the reserves to get quality lead pilots.

Now, this isn't perfect, it's quite possible a lead pilot will come back from the SR at like experience 77 and you may want to start the process all over again. It does take the unit out of the picture for a bit of time and for a lot of players, the micro may not be worth it for them, but the process will work. And lastly it isn't really OP, the whole process is only really able to get going after most of the '41 Campaign has run it's course. The main benefit will be available in 1942 while the formations stay at size 20. Once 1943 rolls around, the unit size will go to 32 and reduce the effectiveness of the lead flight pilot within the unit formation. But then the guards air units kick in and will help with overall pilot experience.

[M60A3TTS]

M60A3TTS-

An absolutely outstanding explanation and analysis of how the air war works; I am just learning but really appreciate the detail; the air war is a major part of the game for me.

There is an section (bolded below) that I do not understand:

Week 13

Now that some regiments are at full strength, we can look to send a few formations to the reserves.

Here is one of them.
Image

Now since all pilots have 50 experience, none of them will get any value from training. So what would be the point?

Well, since we have a full 20 pilots and planes, the unit that comes out of the SR will have the same unit experience level as the one that went in. The difference though is the pilot data will all be changed.

This unit has an experience level of 63. Let us suppose that when the unit comes out of the SR, 18 of the 20 pilots have an experience level of 63. Pilot #19 gets experience level 43. What experience level does pilot #20 get? The answer of course is 83. So, the lead flight #1 pilot of this unit will go up +7 in experience along with the other 11 in his flight when in combat benefit the same. Meanwhile the pilot with experience of 43 gets put in the second flight with a skill of 63, so he benefits quite nicely...

Would you please elaborate or clairify as to how the above results are done? I would be very grateful, Sir.

...So all in all we get an improved fighter unit from the SR, not really from training, but from the law of averages. As we lose pilots and unit experience drops off, we will be able to disband these reserve on-map formations, put in the pilots to get the experience level into the low 60's, then off to the reserves to get quality lead pilots.

Now, this isn't perfect, it's quite possible a lead pilot will come back from the SR at like experience 77 and you may want to start the process all over again. It does take the unit out of the picture for a bit of time and for a lot of players, the micro may not be worth it for them, but the process will work. And lastly it isn't really OP, the whole process is only really able to get going after most of the '41 Campaign has run it's course. The main benefit will be available in 1942 while the formations stay at size 20. Once 1943 rolls around, the unit size will go to 32 and reduce the effectiveness of the lead flight pilot within the unit formation. But then the guards air units kick in and will help with overall pilot experience.

Glad you are getting something out of it. Let's look at an actual example where the 295 IAP went to the reserves on turn 13 with a full complement of aircraft and pilots and returned to the map turn 15.



On the left is what went into the SR, and on the right is what came out.

All pilot info has changed. What has not changed is the unit experience level of 63. Since the new unit received trained pilots with experience levels at the low end of 43, 47 and 49 and they were lower than the three that went in at 62, 62, 57, the AI had to increase the experience of the pilots at the top, which it did. It went from 77, 68, 63 to 81, 81, 71.

So now when going into the first combat in most circumstances, the skill of flight #1 with 12 planes led by B. Grisin has gone up +4 to 81, and flight #2 now led by P. Kostenko has gone +1 from 62 or 63. So pilots Pavlenko, Wojeck and Okun in the new unit doesn't hurt us any because the skill level of pilot 13, leading flight #2 is what drives the combat results.

[Shupov]

This is fantastically helpful info, thanks again!

In an earlier post in "The Red Bloodbath" AAR you posted .

The Air Group is part of an Air Army, so it's later in the game. But how do you get to such high experience levels? Is it with this swapping technique, combat, training, enormous numbers of missions or all of the above? It's just hard to fathom how any VVS pilots could live through enough battles to become this good!

[M60A3TTS]

This is fantastically helpful info, thanks again!

In an earlier post in "The Red Bloodbath" AAR you posted .

The Air Group is part of an Air Army, so it's later in the game. But how do you get to such high experience levels? Is it with this swapping technique, combat, training, enormous numbers of missions or all of the above? It's just hard to fathom how any VVS pilots could live through enough battles to become this good!

That was just a teaser. What you do is disband all the air groups with 90+ experience pilots from the StB scenario and dump them into a single airgroup with almost no pilots. Since the free pool assigns pilots in order of experience from high to low, you end up with this. But this would in reality be a very bad use of these pilots. You want these top pilots spread out among multiple formations so their experience level translates into the skill level for as many fighter flights of 12 aircraft as possible.

[Shupov]

This is an important nugget:

Since the free pool assigns pilots in order of experience from high to low

OK, I think I've got it. The key is to send air groups with excess (3 or more?) highly experienced pilots back to the free pool, then rotate other air groups back and forth so they will distribute. By "other" I mean units that have trained up to National Morale but don't have any highly experienced pilots. The highly experienced air groups should come back with good pilots based on the law of averages.

In the early game I've been trying to get at least one 70+ exp pilot into each modern fighter group and hopefully survive and improve over time.

[M60A3TTS]

This is an important nugget:

Since the free pool assigns pilots in order of experience from high to low

OK, I think I've got it. The key is to send air groups with excess (3 or more?) highly experienced pilots back to the free pool, then rotate other air groups back and forth so they will distribute. By "other" I mean units that have trained up to National Morale but don't have any highly experienced pilots. The highly experienced air groups should come back with good pilots based on the law of averages.

In the early game I've been trying to get at least one 70+ exp pilot into each modern fighter group and hopefully survive and improve over time.

Well, I'm not sure. You understand, you can't send air units to the free pool. You can only disband the unit in order to send the pilots with all their stats intact to the free pool where you can subsequently re-distribute them. You have to decide in this case how many formations you are willing to sacrifice because once it's gone, it's gone permanently. Since you end up with 200+ fighter formations in the long campaign, you can afford to disband some, but units of 20 pilots should not be among them as it's not a good trade. In this game, I am holding onto air groups with 67 pilots for disband which provide a greater return.

Sending units to the reserves can get you better pilots, provided they go in with a full complement of planes. But I still only want to do that where the experience of the unit is in the low 60s. That provides an excellent chance that the most experienced pilot in the unit out of the reserves is 70 to 80+.

Lastly, even 99 experience Soviet pilots when flying in an active combat environment against LW pilots will usually survive at most 12 missions roughly. So don't expect your units are going to get a wealth of experience with longevity like that. It doesn't help that if you fly missions where the LW is not present, just flying around gets you very, very little experience. And while it's better for the LW pilots, when was the last time you saw an ace with 100 kills? The answer is almost never, because they too die to the law of averages, it just takes them longer than their Soviet counterparts.

[Mac Linehan]

M60A3TTS-

Crystal Clear! Thank You, Sir; I am playing a test / learning H2H solitaire scenario to experiment and learn the air combat system. You posts have greatly helped.

What has been most enjoyable, is to use and experiment with the "earlier" at start aircraft, my favorites being the I-16, 15, 15 bis and I 153. What an in-depth, detailed game.

Cricket Mac

[M60A3TTS]

On to week 15 and a ground update.

In the north, my opponent had earlier grabbed a foothold over the Volkhov near Syasstroy but then withdrew later. Now he has gotten over the Neva. This leaves him free to withdraw 4th Panzer if he chooses for other duties.





In the center, he has created a fresh pocket.



Southern positions have turned relatively static. I think jubjub should be quite happy where the lines have settled here at this stage.



In the south, Sevastopol holds out.



About 159,000 men trapped with 14 rifle divisions between the center pocket and Sevastopol.

Other info

[M60A3TTS]

Week 16

In the center, jubjub finishes off the pocket and I feel obliged to give up a little more ground. Kaluga is lost.



In the air war, 1st and 6th SAD based in Tula assist in supporting Zhukov's Central Front with a pair of ground attacks.



Sevastopol is lost after Batov's 51st Army garrison was withdrawn from the city where the isolated state could not be broken, especially having to fly naval patrols from Kerch instead of Sevastopol where the airbase remained fuel-less. Minimal casualties were suffered during the evacuation which was the sole bright spot.

[M60A3TTS]

Week 17

Rasputitsa has begun. Heavy rains this week suspend all air operations.

At Leningrad, the heavy weight of German artillery means that Bagramyan's divisions cannot hold. The German Neva bridgehead is expanded.




In the center,little action as jubjub digests his gains.



Some action taking place south of Voronezh. Uncertain how hot things will get around here.

[M60A3TTS]

The Theater Boxes could use more fighters.

[Beethoven1]

The Theater Boxes could use more fighters.

You can ignore the Air TB values, because Soviets have no events at all giving +/- AP and +/- VP for air TB values.

However, you still want to make sure that the amount that planes contribute to GROUND TB values is maxed out. But the air values being <100% does not matter at all (unless you find it more enjoyable and less slimy-feeling to have the numbers say 100%).

[M60A3TTS]

The Theater Boxes could use more fighters.

You can ignore the Air TB values, because Soviets have no events at all giving +/- AP and +/- VP for air TB values.

However, you still want to make sure that the amount that planes contribute to GROUND TB values is maxed out. But the air values being <100% does not matter at all (unless you find it more enjoyable and less slimy-feeling to have the numbers say 100%).

Yes, thanks. jubjub and I agreed at the start we would not abuse the open Theater Boxes so I am going a bit above and beyond and making an honest effort to keep the air boxes up, even though there is no penalty for not doing so as you say.

[Shupov]

I've never lost event VP's having >100% Ground in the TB's but have wondered whether <100% Air prevents gaining VP's. Any insights?

[M60A3TTS]

That's a good one. I do not know.

[Commanderski]

In keeping with past practices, North Caucasus Air Command assumes responsibility for the shattered air groups. These include groups with few to no aircraft. They may have any number of pilots, from 0 to 67, it simply depends on individual circumstances. All of these aircraft go to Restricted status so as not to receive new aircraft. With 67 planes per air group there simply are not enough surviving aircraft to go around, obviously.

On the first page you transferred the shattered air groups and groups with no planes to the North Caucasus Air Command.

Since they have no planes and you put them in Restricted status, what do you do with them? Will they receive pilots but no planes? Just learning the Soviet side of the air war and still figuring things out.

[M60A3TTS]

An air unit in a restricted state will receive neither pilots nor planes.

I chose to wait until I disbanded a few air groups, like 3-5, and manually distributed those pilots from the free pool to these empty air groups. Three of those groups I disbanded were like size 12 naval eskadriliya that really weren't going to fit in with my standing air forces. I did not fill all the empty air groups, there were too many spots to fill. In some case I might have 12 pilots in one of these units assigned I-16 Type 24 with zero planes. Another formation might get 3 pilots. Once turn 12 came and unit size dropped to 20, I could then fill all the slots with the hundreds of pilots from air groups that faced required disband that same turn. You can see those units listed on the air reinforcement schedule. After that is was a simple matter of lifting the restriction and at the same time setting the aircraft type to whatever was desired, Yak, MiG or LaGG.

[M60A3TTS]

Week 18 is when in every sense nothing happened.

Pouring rains and heavy mud brings everything and everyone to a halt.

I am left to ponder where jubjub will strike in the center once the first snows fall. North to Vyazma-Rzhev? Northeast towards Moscow? To Tula? Much ground to try and cover.