[1.25e] Rail Logistic points uneven distro

[Bellrock]

I’m assuming this is a bug, as I'm having an issue in Rail Logistic points not being evenly distributed.

I have been having major issues balancing my logistics network, in that ammo seems to be taking up the bulk of the logistic points. A major bottleneck is around my Capital (see large red circle), between Aarhorn (a minor city) to the west, and the first road/rail junction to the east . The railroad in the Capital is at lvl 6, and the one at Aarhorn is lvl 1, currently being expanding to lvl 2. The cities, off map have rail stations in the lvl 5 range.

Aarhon Rail Points Intial Pts.png (6.92 MiB) Viewed 690 times

The Capital city logistics points to the west, towards Aarhorn, has value of 97528 pts. Further west of Aarhon, the value increases to 100194 pts. Ideally I would like to see an even distribution of pts leaving my Capital City continuing past Aarhorn towards the west.

Looking at the rail logistic point distribution leaving the city of Aarhorn I get this.

Aarhon Rail Points Overview.png (7.26 MiB) Viewed 690 times

Looks like all rail points leaving Aarhon are being directed towards the west, and nothing going to the capital. Adjusting the traffic stops, nor putting max pull points at the Capital change this flow.

Aarhon Rail Points Logistics.png (5.67 MiB) Viewed 690 times

This is traffic detail of the road / rail network to the south-east of Aarhorn. I’m seeing some pull points being referenced, which are occurring naturally, as I have not set any other pull points on the map.

I also seeing a similar issue to the east of the Capital. The rail line heading south, has a small city and rail station that is sending all rail points to the east.


I would like to also ask if there will be any consideration to increasing the logistic points of Rail stations in the future? After the ammo rework, I can't seem to get enough rail stations down to support my battle front.

Note to self, this is turn 173.

Thanks,
Bell

[Vic]

Keep in mind that the SHQ Hex serves as the spider in the web and logistical points cannot flow black towards it in many cases. Also note that the total logistical points flowing east and west from that junction are almost equal. I am not 100% sure what you are trying to do, but probable workaround is to create a bypass around the capital city OR making a new rail line connecting that secondary rail station directly to the SHQ hex (and removing the 1 hex branch to the south east)

[Bellrock]

Thank you for the reply Vic.

What I’m trying to do is increase the logistic points at my Capital City.

In the early game (still researching Engineering techs), I was having bottleneck issues at the Capital. My understanding of logistical game mechanics are that all resources collected in your zones are sent back to the SHQ (which is the Capital City in this game), and redistributed from the SHQ as required. Thus if you are having bottleneck issues at your SHQ, …….well bad things happen.

From what I can determine, resources were being delivered as they should, but ammo distribution was a problem. In this early portion of the game, something like around 20 too 40k ammo was needed to support my troops. With ammo taking up the reaming logistic points, there is a consistent bottleneck at the Capital. Therefore, the consistent bottleneck was preventing troop reinforcements, which was causing a collapse of the front lines (due to a lack of troops).

This required an aggressive upgrade of rail / truck stations. Here is a screen shot of the rail distro of the city to the west (Grenmont).

Grenmont Rail Points Overview.png (7.93 MiB) Viewed 657 times

The Grenmont Rail is sending it’s rail logistic points to the east passing thru my Capital. Whereas, Aarhorn rail points will only send it’s logistic pts west, away from the Capital.

Being my rail stations at my Capital and Grenmont are nearly capped out, my thinking was to upgrade the Rail station at Aarhorn to pump more logistic points on this westward route (similar to what Grenmont is doing). What instead is happing is that Aarhorn will only distribute away from my Capital. This is not what I expected, per my understanding of how rail points are distributed. Hence, I assume this is a bug.

Additional thought, with ammo taking up so much of the logistic network, it seems like I’m having to overly manage the logistical network to prevent bottlenecks. In a sense I feel like I’m fighting it. Suggesting that Rail Station point generation points be increased to help with early game bottlenecks.

Thanks,
Bell

[phyroks]

I dont know if upgrading your train station will solve the issue you have and start splitting the train point more evenly, but I think the pull point system will always favor sending it the way you got consumption.

One of my new lvl1 train stations would not let me split logistics point the way you want like trucks do (outside the 10% rule if you dont have railhead or station in both places). I could not send 20% to other direction and 80% to other way like trucks do, I tried sending small amount to some dead end train split* but the game would not let me do that (It worked at 10% 40-60% and 100%, or something along those lines) any value outside of those did not change points sent, perhaps there is some smallest train to send limit? I dont use pull points.

*(train station was at this splitting point, the dead end had railhead for a while)

[BlueTemplar]

[...]
My understanding of logistical game mechanics are that all resources collected in your zones are sent back to the SHQ (which is the Capital City in this game), and redistributed from the SHQ as required. Thus if you are having bottleneck issues at your SHQ, …….well bad things happen.
[...]

You understand correctly... but the logipoint distribution algorithm does NOT understand that.

It sounds like you violated the rule of thumb under which the logistic network algorithm works properly :

[...]
The game just seems to assume that most of your logipoints are going to be emanating from the SHQ ?
This doesn't work so well in a complex grid of cities each with a rail station (noobtrap !)

So the workaround seems to be that you should *never* have a logipoint generator to branch out into another city(¤) before going through the SHQ ?
[...]

(¤) City because rural assets and units are unlikely to pull as much logipoints.
Be careful when using artillery, flak, or aircraft with bombs I guess ?

Fast-forward a few years later, and ammo consumption gets drastically increased, resulting in this situation happening way more often ?

(Same issue should happen with truck stations, but since rail tends to dwarf them...)

(I guess your situation might also be fixed by using multiple SHQs ? (in the short term, at the cost of extra complexity and micromanagement)
P.S.: Or turn off the algorithm and do it manually.)

nor putting max pull points at the Capital change this flow

This, however, sounds like a bug.
But screenshots aren't enough to figure out something like this, could you please upload a savegame ?

[Bellrock]

see attached game file.

[Bellrock]

BlueTemplar, I have attached a save file of the game at turn 170 in the post above (honestly didn’t think I could upload a save, however here you go.) Note, the pictures above, in the original post are from turn 173. I’m providing turn 170 save as it shows the bottleneck I was dealing with for good portion of the game (at least 20 turns.) Here is a pic, at turn 170, showing that it is just my Capital that has the bottleneck. No more shuffling of the logistic points is possible.

Capital Bottleneck 170.png (7.01 MiB) Viewed 540 times

At turn 173, I did get a new rail station up, and the bottleneck was not present that turn. I have since ended this game at turn 178 due to frustration with the rail logistics systems.

One of the problems I was having, is upgrading rail stations is becomes increasingly expensive in terms of machine parts which I do not have this early in the game. So what I’m attempting to do is expand the rail stations at cities (spoke cities) outside my Capital (the hub city.) The lower level rails stations at these cities are cheaper and quicker to upgrade versus the Capital which already has a higher level rail station. The idea being, an upgrade rail station at a spoke city would generate needed logistic points that would flow back to the Capital, and save on cost to do so.

In exploring my Capital Bottleneck issues, there seem to cities (with rail stations), were this spoke city (as in not my capital) is sending all logistical points to another spoke city. Given the game mechanics are that all goods have to flow back to and from your capital, it does not make sense to distribute logistical points to other spoke cities. The exception being here, to perhaps pass thru a spoke city to get back your Capital (the hub city.)

To add to your comment; Before the ammo revamp, I could comfortable upgrade the rail logistic system, and something like a level III rail station at my Capital was sufficient. When I did adjusted the logistic system, it was for edge cases optimization, and for the most part did not seem to be a requirement. There were typically plenty of logistic points to handle the empire needs, with occasional upgrades required.

Since the ammo revamp, I’m not able to upgrade my rail stations in a way to support the ammo requirements. This problem appears at the time I start using high ammo consuming units (like Air forces and artillery, in my case.) Producing and distributing the needed ammo, is requiring a logistical system at my Capital (the hub city) cannot generate on it’s own. Keep in mind I only have eight cities, ¼ territory of the map, and less than 10% of the pop in this game, and my rail station at my Capital is nearly capped out.

I have to ask, how am I suppose to conquer the world if I can’t get ammo out of my Capital city?

Regards

[BlueTemplar]

Thanks, I'll try to take a look over the weekend.

Well, the bottleneck is typically still going to be next to your capital anyway (because of the decline in points with range from truck station from other cities, unless maybe if you mothball them ?).

You're right about new train stations being quicker to upgrade, but I have some doubts about it being cheaper (per point) : looking at lvl1 vs lvl2, only machines seem to be worse ?

You seem to have forgotten that logistic assets are NOT restricted to cities ? See the logistic tutorial that my quote links to for some examples.

It is possible that the balance went too far the other way and artillery is now too costly for what it's worth. It's also possible that it's only an issue in that game of yours rather than in general, due to many reasons.

Have you tried the new "normcore" system yet ?

[Bellrock]

Reply to Blue Templar,

You're right about new train stations being quicker to upgrade, but I have some doubts about it being cheaper (per point) : looking at lvl1 vs lvl2, only machines seem to be worse ?

It seems I like charts today, so I did one for the rail station upgrade cost:

Rail Chart Cost.png (25.45 KiB) Viewed 505 times

Per the above chart, Metal and IP cost are cheaper per logistical point gained, but only slightly. While Turns to Build, Machines, and WorkerPoints cost noticeable more per logistical points gained. The take away being, it is cheaper to upgrade a lower level train station then to upgrade a higher level one.

You seem to have forgotten that logistic assets are NOT restricted to cities ? See the logistic tutorial that my quote links to for some examples.

Assets outside of six tiles from a city generate admin strain, which in turn, generate production penalties. So the one thing I didn't want in my Capital (my main production city) are production penalties; penalties that also get applied to logistical assets as well. The point is, I build logistical assets outside cities when needed, and actively remove when not useful.

Furthermore, there are also a logistical point penalties that gets applied when the logistical points from one logistical asset pass thru another logistical asset (like 25% penalty the first time.) The point being, there would be a logistical penalty applied if I were say to place an additional train station, at say a halfway point, on the main tracks between two cities when attempting to boost logistical points on that route.

I may have read your tutorial, but would not mind reading it again. However, there is no link provided in this post; can you repost? I'm looking for ideas on how to boost logistical points leaving my Capital, so any tips and tricks would be appreciated.

[BlueTemplar]

Damn, I'm even shorter on time than I expected, but that one is quick :
the link is accessible from the arrow to the right of "wrote:" :

firefox_e3dPiYkzRf.jpg (7.43 KiB) Viewed 495 times

[BlueTemplar]

Per the above chart, Metal and IP cost are cheaper per logistical point gained, but only slightly. While Turns to Build, Machines, and WorkerPoints cost noticeable more per logistical points gained. The take away being, it is cheaper to upgrade a lower level train station then to upgrade a higher level one.

My bad, didn't notice the WorkerPoints.
According to your own table, you are wrong about Turns to Build ?

My takeaway would be "it depends". (And that's before even counting the increased OpEx efficiency of the higher level stations. And increased range.)

[BlueTemplar]

Ok, so I've now looked at the save.

Keep in mind I only have eight cities, ¼ territory of the map, and less than 10% of the pop in this game, and my rail station at my Capital is nearly capped out.

What is the map size ? (205x82 Seems to be "average" ? Personally, I've given up on the idea to play on anything over "small" (or even smaller), for micromanagement reasons... maybe except if the map is mostly water ?)
Are the population and resources typical for a map of this size ?

In the early game (still researching Engineering techs)

That doesn't mean much when techs are only a part of the progression. And IMHO calling Tech Level 6.37 - almost all of Chemistry and Engineering researched, and the next 6 groups half-discovered - "early game" - is stretching it.

What instead is happing is that Aarhorn will only distribute away from my Capital. This is not what I expected, per my understanding of how rail points are distributed. Hence, I assume this is a bug.

I dont know if upgrading your train station will solve the issue you have and start splitting the train point more evenly, but I think the pull point system will always favor sending it the way you got consumption.
[...]

Indeed, there's hardly any pull points at your capital, so the logistic AI has no reason to send logipoints there. It's not aware of the existence of a bottleneck.
(It might still happen accidentally, if the other side of your empire is so lacking in logipoints that your capital + generators on that side cannot fullfill the pull requirements.)

Given the game mechanics are that all goods have to flow back to and from your capital, it does not make sense to distribute logistical points to other spoke cities. The exception being here, to perhaps pass thru a spoke city to get back your Capital (the hub city.)

I would tend to agree, but I'm not certain that it's possible to make a smart enough AI to account for this, while keeping it light enough to not have to wait minutes each time you want to check LogiPoint Preview / extra minutes of turn processing for each round.
(This seems to be quite similar to the Traveling Salesman problem, which is infamously NP-hard ?)

So, without using the logipoints injection tricks (see tutorial) or massively overbuilding logistics, we indeed would have to go back to, at the very least the semi-automated solutions of custom pull points (or new SHQs).

But here we seem to indeed hit a snag : one bit of the game's interface hasn't been accounted for all the extra logistic demand !

ShadowEmpire_A6W0WpP5aq.jpg (640.44 KiB) Viewed 474 times

50k custom pull points ought to be enough for anybody, right ?
Well, except that this is what the truck and rail station in the Capital already generate (by coincidence, barely so), so this setting has no effect !