New content should be DLC to support development of SE!

[Itza]

I love Shadow Empire, and there are no other games I know of which pump out meaningful updates with new content this often. I feel I got value for my money a long time ago.

With the recent update which added tons of new GR card including tech and units, I can’t help but feel that I would prefer that it be sold as part of a larger DLC if that would help Vic in development, or even hire an additional developer. Alternativly, do like Distant Worlds 2 which has a lot of smaller DLCs. It works for them, and I think it could be a sustainable way of doing long term business for Shadow Empires aswell.

Bug fixes is one thing, but just straight up content is very generous. It might be controversial, but I wish Vic was a bit more business oriented so that the value and income generated from Shadow Empires was higher. A better business case is crucial to get even more content in the long run and perhaps in some far flung future even a sequel.

[czert2]

i have no problem with puting some new features from patches to new dlc, especialy it it will mean even more new features and ensuring that se will continue to be developed and patched.

[Voker57]

This kind of a business model creates a perverse initiative to pump out "content" for more DLC to buy, instead of fixing the game mechanics and balance (that has to be free). Just look at what it has done to Stellaris (and other Paradox games). I'd rather see fundraisers for specific goals, like creating a proper less random map generation system. Ideally, the game engine should be open sourced, so that community can improve it as well.

[Squarehead]

Vic did an interview with the guys from Explorminate earlier this year where he talked about why he wasn't inclined to work towards a second DLC for Shadow Empire right now, and I think his reasoning makes sense.
I reckon the best way to encourage continued development on Shadow Empire is to get your friends to buy it (which they should do anyways because it's awesome)

[mroyer]

The real answer here is going to a subscription-based business model, but that's such a foreign idea for these types of games that it would never fly. With a subscription-based business model, the developer would be free to fix, update, upgrade, etc... whatever is best for the game and community, without direct financial implication. Financial implications would instead be related directly to continued quality of product and responsiveness to community.

-Mark R.

[JohnRa]

I think there could be a simple support DLC without content, just some money. Maybe even in tiers. Some indie devs do it and I hear it's not too bad. Who wants to give money can just do that.

If people only want to give some money specific for that game, there should be a way - or a bank account information on the website.

[czert2]

This kind of a business model creates a perverse initiative to pump out "content" for more DLC to buy, instead of fixing the game mechanics and balance (that has to be free). Just look at what it has done to Stellaris (and other Paradox games). I'd rather see fundraisers for specific goals, like creating a proper less random map generation system. Ideally, the game engine should be open sourced, so that community can improve it as well.

yes, some companies relase dlc which include things which should be in basic game, or put here little content there and use time and money for fixing stuff.
while other companies put in dlc extra contennt with good amount of work.
it is allways up to players to decide if they buy dlcs or not.
but keep in mind, every company, including game company, needs money and INCOME to keep running, so to keep fixing original game you need good amount of sales of original game even after some time. of get these funds via selling dlcs.
bucause once income drop under certain amount it will make no financial sense to bugfix game.

keep in mind, that 20 years and more time ago to have any bugfing done after game was relased was some sort of miracle.
and if you want to start fundraiser for it ? well, you can allways try.

and open sourced code ????? WHY ???? are you mad ? why anyone should do that ? after they no longer support that game, it is up to them on free will.
why they should give away thier work for free, while they still get money for thier work.

[Voker57]

This kind of a business model creates a perverse initiative to pump out "content" for more DLC to buy, instead of fixing the game mechanics and balance (that has to be free). Just look at what it has done to Stellaris (and other Paradox games). I'd rather see fundraisers for specific goals, like creating a proper less random map generation system. Ideally, the game engine should be open sourced, so that community can improve it as well.

yes, some companies relase dlc which include things which should be in basic game, or put here little content there and use time and money for fixing stuff.
while other companies put in dlc extra contennt with good amount of work.
it is allways up to players to decide if they buy dlcs or not.
but keep in mind, every company, including game company, needs money and INCOME to keep running, so to keep fixing original game you need good amount of sales of original game even after some time. of get these funds via selling dlcs.
bucause once income drop under certain amount it will make no financial sense to bugfix game.

That's true, but what I mean by perverse incentives is that is a bad way to earn money. If fixing game requires budget, ask the community, make a fundraiser for it, no need for some weird way to coax some money from community which will also be less effective because DLC cost money to develop.

and open sourced code ????? WHY ???? are you mad ? why anyone should do that ? after they no longer support that game, it is up to them on free will.
why they should give away thier work for free, while they still get money for thier work.

Open source does not mean free. Plenty of games are fully or partially open source, like civilization 1-4, RimWorld, Stardew Valley, this does not help to run the game without a license (Shadow Empire is DRM-free on GOG anyway), but lets community help improve it.

[czert2]

yes, fixing game reqires budeget and it will be that way forever.
outsourcing fixing of game to comunity is very double edged sword - since you have no guarantee that comunity will be capable and dont screw up more things that thay fix, if they fix anything in first place.
your fundraiser idea - well, you are weclomed to try. you can start today, contact developers of se aand cooperate with them, create acount at gofundme or any fundraiser you desire, post there plans for up to 1.5 (that pic under my new dlc thread ) and ask for small sum, lets say 500 000 usd. it will take some time to reach here, and rember you need to pay workers, energies, offices...etc.
tell me in a year how many money you raised in, and we will see for how long time it will pay devs expanses.

yes, creating dlc cost money, but again, thiers goal is exactly same as for main game - earn more money by selling it that it cost to create it.

open source, well, yeah there are some rare cases in which you still need buy original game (for 5 usd or less, extremly rarery for more - f.e. jagged alliance 2 which is open source), and can you show me any link which confrims that civ 1-4 or your other mentioned games are OPENSOURCE ?
i failed to find it, to me it looks that you confuse player created MODs with open source. which are two very different things.

and for game to be DRM free doesnt mean it is open source or close to it.

[czert2]

The real answer here is going to a subscription-based business model, but that's such a foreign idea for these types of games that it would never fly. With a subscription-based business model, the developer would be free to fix, update, upgrade, etc... whatever is best for the game and community, without direct financial implication. Financial implications would instead be related directly to continued quality of product and responsiveness to community.

-Mark R.

but most ironic think is that even subsription doesnt ensure quality, and once you cancel subscription....
just look at what happened to microsoft office and other programs.

[Voker57]

yes, fixing game reqires budeget and it will be that way forever.
outsourcing fixing of game to comunity is very double edged sword - since you have no guarantee that comunity will be capable and dont screw up more things that thay fix, if they fix anything in first place.

It's not like you surrender all ability to fix the game by releasing the source code, developers can always review the patches and incorporate what they like, or just do nothing.

your fundraiser idea - well, you are weclomed to try. you can start today, contact developers of se aand cooperate with them, create acount at gofundme or any fundraiser you desire, post there plans for up to 1.5 (that pic under my new dlc thread ) and ask for small sum, lets say 500 000 usd. it will take some time to reach here, and rember you need to pay workers, energies, offices...etc.
tell me in a year how many money you raised in, and we will see for how long time it will pay devs expanses.

Why should I do it? I'm not a developer or even a publisher. Not sure how these calculations figure in there: nothing prevents continuing to sell the game, and less pressure to release gimmick DLC to get cash means less expenses.

open source, well, yeah there are some rare cases in which you still need buy original game (for 5 usd or less, extremly rarery for more - f.e. jagged alliance 2 which is open source), and can you show me any link which confrims that civ 1-4 or your other mentioned games are OPENSOURCE ?
i failed to find it, to me it looks that you confuse player created MODs with open source. which are two very different things.

Civilizations are partially open source: most of the game logic is open source and this lets the community create mods that change the game. https://github.com/Gedemon/Civ5-DLL for 5
For RimWorld, source code useful to modders is included with the game: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=3394.0
Stardew Valley is not obfuscated and can be decompiled to readable code, so open source https://github.com/WeDias/StardewValley
Amnesia games are open source, for another example https://github.com/FrictionalGames . Also older Dooms, Quakes, etc, are open source and still sell well.

and for game to be DRM free doesnt mean it is open source or close to it.

It means not opening the source code is meaningless: it will not lead to any loss of income since everybody can already pirate the game just fine if they wish.

[czert2]

it is extremly funny, that you wrote tthat devs can allways review fixed code by comunity. well, now just show to me that this reviewing will be actualy faster than just directly fixing code by themself.

why should you ? it was your idea, so lets have ou put some effort behind it. contact devs, publishers...nd see how thing work out .
yes, nothing prevents game to be sold....other that it is getingg old and players genreraly lose interest in games which is old, no matter thiers quality. so onlyest thing which can keep it alive are new dls.

for your links, many thanks for them, i readed them.
for civ5 - if i understanded it well, they opened only game ai for moding, nothing else. and ai is most hard thing to code, and as bonus devs will be fee to use this comunity improved ai in thier next civ games.
for rimwold - devs made open source only part of the game, not whole, and opened that part which mods will love to mod.

and yes, some old games are open source, but i only found new quake in hd for purchrase, not that old from 1996 with few dozens mb in size.

and ou have interesing view on drm. no, it doesnt mean that if game lack drm, then making it open source will be the same. all it means that lack of drm means, that devs can focus on game, instead od speding time on protection which will be cracked soner or later.
and i can say that drm free actuly boost sales, because pirates can safely play and try these games, and buy them later if they decide they like them.
unlike cracked games which have great amount of risk, that together with crack to play a game you are inviting many backdoors and viruses to ours computer.

[MrUnimport]

I think Vic has probably made the decision to keep maturing SE as a game in the hopes of reaching a wider audience rather than trying to sell DLC to the audience it already has. I think it makes sense honestly, it's a niche game right now but it has the potential to become a cult hit.

[Voker57]

it is extremly funny, that you wrote tthat devs can allways review fixed code by comunity. well, now just show to me that this reviewing will be actualy faster than just directly fixing code by themself.

I think it's obvious that reviewing the code is faster than writing it. Otherwise nobody would ever accept pull requests.

why should you ? it was your idea, so lets have ou put some effort behind it. contact devs, publishers...nd see how thing work out .

Why are you starting this with me? Have you offered the topic starter to contact devs and publishers to release more paid DLC?

yes, nothing prevents game to be sold....other that it is getingg old and players genreraly lose interest in games which is old, no matter thiers quality. so onlyest thing which can keep it alive are new dls.

That's why "buying" games is creating a perverse incentive to release more "products" to buy. Players can instead crowdfund updates for the game and enjoy them.

and yes, some old games are open source, but i only found new quake in hd for purchrase, not that old from 1996 with few dozens mb in size.

Unfortunate if somebody wants the very original one for some reason, but for example Doom is still sold https://www.gog.com/en/game/doom_ii

and ou have interesing view on drm. no, it doesnt mean that if game lack drm, then making it open source will be the same. all it means that lack of drm means, that devs can focus on game, instead od speding time on protection which will be cracked soner or later.

It also means that players don't receive an inferior product relative to pirates, with additional restrictions and issues, like GOG legitimate SE players cannot use open beta while pirates can.

[nscrutable]

it is extremly funny, that you wrote tthat devs can allways review fixed code by comunity. well, now just show to me that this reviewing will be actualy faster than just directly fixing code by themself.

I think it's obvious that reviewing the code is faster than writing it. Otherwise nobody would ever accept pull requests.

Cosigning this as a software engineer. Reviewing code *can* take more time than conceiving of it and writing it in cases where the reviewer is missing context or needs time to hear out the argument for the change happening at all, but in those situations generally the person reviewing wouldn't have thought of writing the code in the first place so the point is moot.

On a personal level I would love the opportunity to contribute labor to the project. It's off the table for a lot of developers, ykno not everybody wants to turn their personal project into a group project with cooperation involved, but this is a really special game and I'd like to see where it'd go if some of the technical load were distributed.

yes, nothing prevents game to be sold....other that it is getingg old and players genreraly lose interest in games which is old, no matter thiers quality. so onlyest thing which can keep it alive are new dls.

That's why "buying" games is creating a perverse incentive to release more "products" to buy. Players can instead crowdfund updates for the game and enjoy them.

I really get where OP was coming from with this. I also want to give more money to Vic. On the other hand... as it stands, the way to give money to Vic is to talk people into the game and buy it for them so they can play with you. If there were more DLC, then you'd be getting fewer people into the game. ykno... 50$ per person MSRP is one thing, especially since the game is very playable without Oceania. If it goes a Paradox direction where there are "core DLC" that are essential to the enjoyment then you get fewer people to play with.

I tried to look up that explorminate interview with Vic where he talked about DLC but their website isn't loading for me and it's not in the wayback machine, I'll have to check it another time.

Anyway it's been ages since I've played multiplayer, would you want to play sometime Voker? Sorry about resigning the one last year, it was really fun but my SE fixation was crippling my time management skills :') I think I've got it under control now.

[Vic]

Its a special year for me, 2024, I got a new baby girl and we moved to a new house, so one of the reasons of no DLC was that I wanted to remove some deadline pressure from this year's schedule.

Other option by the way is to go for a similar release path as I did with Advanced Tactics... That is to say to release a Gold version at some point in time and provide a big upgrade price reduction for existing owners.

Best wishes,
Vic

[perde]

The real answer here is going to a subscription-based business model, but that's such a foreign idea for these types of games that it would never fly. With a subscription-based business model, the developer would be free to fix, update, upgrade, etc... whatever is best for the game and community, without direct financial implication. Financial implications would instead be related directly to continued quality of product and responsiveness to community.

-Mark R.

Unironically the worst idea I have ever heard. Please don't share any more opinions.

Its a special year for me, 2024, I got a new baby girl and we moved to a new house, so one of the reasons of no DLC was that I wanted to remove some deadline pressure from this year's schedule.

Other option by the way is to go for a similar release path as I did with Advanced Tactics... That is to say to release a Gold version at some point in time and provide a big upgrade price reduction for existing owners.

Best wishes,
Vic

Congratulations

[mroyer]

Unironically the worst idea I have ever heard. Please don't share any more opinions.

Is that your modus operandi? If you don't like a though or opinion, shutdown it down categorically, rather than offering considered dialog and interchange regarding your viewpoint?

-Mark R.

[perde]

Unironically the worst idea I have ever heard. Please don't share any more opinions.

Is that your modus operandi? If you don't like a though or opinion, shutdown it down categorically, rather than offering considered dialog and interchange regarding your viewpoint?

-Mark R.

Yes.

[nscrutable]

Its a special year for me, 2024, I got a new baby girl and we moved to a new house, so one of the reasons of no DLC was that I wanted to remove some deadline pressure from this year's schedule.

Other option by the way is to go for a similar release path as I did with Advanced Tactics... That is to say to release a Gold version at some point in time and provide a big upgrade price reduction for existing owners.

Best wishes,
Vic

Congratulations on your baby, Vic! I hope the new house is in a good condition.

I just picked up AC on this prompting to pair with DC:AO that I bought earlier this week, which I've been enjoying. I love the art that you make, take it as easy as you like.

If you'd ever be open to code contributions I'd be happy to help in other ways than financial : D Shadow Empire is a very special game to me. Regardless I'll keep supporting your work how I may