Paradrop chaining, what are peoples thoughts on this?

[Lothos]

Paradrop chaining is when

You do a Paradrop, move, attack then go in Paradrop Mode (all in the same turn)

So you can then Paradrop again on the very next turn

I spoke to one of the devs about it and they felt it was good to see what the community feels about it. Do you think this is somewhat over powering exploit or do you think it is ok to do?

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One thing to note, it was physically impossible to do something like this (in World War 2). Even today it would be difficulty, about the only units that can do a continous jump after another is Air-Cav and thats because they are using Helicopters.

[gigiduru]

I thought paratroopers were gods and they can just jump around Kratos style wherever they want

On a more serious note - this is gamey to the core. Completly opposed to this kind of gameplay and i would at least HR against it.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Here's a good one used on me a lot:

Airborne unit force-marches ( not a big deal in TRP but in WiE and WaW it is)...and has the mode 'prepare' available at the end of the move for jumping the next turn.
Particularly used when the Germans are advancing East into the USSR.

Tell me, in all reality, how can an Airborne unit march (or force-march, a real stretch here), prepare their equipment, have planes available and be ready to jump next turn.

Imagine the range when you have long-range tech of 3 to 5, combine that with a force-march sequence......

Realistic? No.

I'd like folks that do this with Airborne units explain their rational, other than, "well they can do it because the game allows it"
I'm all ears.

Side note: Lothos, you mentioned Air Cavalry with helicopters.
There's a monster game by SPI called Objective Moscow. Basically it covered a bunch of scenarios of hypothetical wars from the 2000's into the 2030s.

There were three specific Infantry/Lt Armor units that could be moved by air:
Airborne/Paras. (Inf)
Air Assault (Lt Armor)
Air Cavalry. (Inf)

Airborne and Air Assault had to 'prepare' for a paradrop. They could NOT move while preparing.
The next turn, they could fly over enemy units to a certain range limit.

Air Cavalry (Helicopter-borne or similar advanced rotor-craft) could move forward, and move next round to a prescribed range, ignoring ZoC along the way. They could not fly over enemy units but could stitch paths through gaps.

AAA was a danger, as was possible intervention by enemy fighters.

[roy64]

On a more serious note - this is gamey to the core. Completly opposed to this kind of gameplay

Agreed.

[gigiduru]

There's a monster game by SPI called Objective Moscow. Basically it covered a bunch of scenarios of hypothetical wars from the 2000's into the 2030s.

There were three specific Infantry/Lt Armor units that could be moved by air:
Airborne/Paras. (Inf)
Air Assault (Lt Armor)
Air Cavalry. (Inf)

Airborne and Air Assault had to 'prepare' for a paradrop. They could NOT move while preparing.
The next turn, they could fly over enemy units to a certain range limit.

Air Cavalry (Helicopter-borne or similar advanced rotor-craft) could move forward, and move next round to a prescribed range, ignoring ZoC along the way. They could not fly over enemy units but could stitch paths through gaps.

AAA was a danger, as was possible intervention by enemy fighters.

I think Panzer Corps 1(and 2) has the gist of it without going too much into supplies and logistics. In order to use paratroopers there to paradrop you need to take them to an airfield and then board into a plane and only after that you could paradrop them. This would take 2 to 3 turns.

As i stated on a previous games are free to be played as people want them. IF both players what to use cheats and summon flying cards with lazers - sure - who are we do say anything?

And paratroopers are just one aspect. We already covered strategic bombers and i'm glad TRP has taken real steps in limiting those flying bullshit cans.

[El_Condoro]

I raised the paratroop range question here but the ability to ready them ahead of a drop after moving is also problematic. I think both aspects could be modified.

[Lothos]

So my thinking is the following

Paratrooper
- In a ZOC, Paradrop, Movement, Attack, Reinforce or Upgrade will cause the Paradrop icon to be disabled
- Paratroopers must be at full strength for the Paradrop Icon to be enabled

This will atleast force the player to wait atleast 2 turns before dropping again because you have the action they just took. THen next turn if they are not in a ZOC and not damaged they could hit the Paradrop button and wait till the following turn before they can drop. If they suffered casualties from the drop and attack they cant hit the Paradrop icon until they are back to a full strength 10 (or greater for elites) units.

So far from what everyone is saying my thinking is if the devs are willing to do something that then above recomendation I think would solve it.

[argilas]

I agree that paradrop chaining is a gamey move and also agree with Lothos' suggestions.

[Goodenough]

I agree that paradrop chaining is gamey.


"Paratrooper
- In a ZOC, Paradrop, Movement, Attack, Reinforce or Upgrade will cause the Paradrop icon to be disabled
- Paratroopers must be at full strength for the Paradrop Icon to be enabled"

I'm not sure that the Paratroopers should be at full strength but agree with all the other points. If the Paratrooper is already in drop mode, will reinforcing or upgrading take it out of drop mode? I don't think it should.

[Lothos]

Can someone explain how to duplicate this, I have seen it done to me but when the devs and I try and duplicate Paradrop chaining we are having no luck.

Please describe the steps.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I seen the force march into low supply and prepare deal. As long as they start at 5 supply or better at the beginning of a turn, they can prepare.

The chaining thing have no idea. Can you elaborate more. I have heard of it though, and there are times when I seen what I thought was an impossible jump. With FoW on the replay doesnt show much in MP....

Idea proposed by Lothos:
Paratrooper
- In a ZOC, Paradrop, Movement, Attack, Reinforce or Upgrade will cause the Paradrop icon to be disabled
- Paratroopers must be at full strength for the Paradrop Icon to be enabled

Well the No Movement part I agree with. Attacking and then preparing in the same turn No.
Not moving, but able to reinforce or upgrade and the prepare in the same turn I would allow. My opinion of course.

[Duedman]

To my knowledge the chaining simply requires 2 or more paratroopers.
Para 1 jumps into an empty town usually capturing it at Str 4.
It cannot prepare again right away and the town would drop to 3 with no land connection.
Several other troops establish that connection. So the town will grow to 5 next turn.
Now Para 2 forcemarches to where Para 1 landed and prepares itself.
So next turn Para 2 will be able to jump while Para 1 got a 5 supply and can move / forchemarch / made ready again.

This can not be repeated endlessly because you eventually run out of regular units to establish the connection (they can not forcemarch below 5 supply).
But it is super powerful in the early stages of Barbarossa especially down in Ukraine.
Russia has no striking power to even scratch the Paras but is constantly at risk of getting defenders cut off.

The passive spotting nerf already made it a bit harder.
I would fully support cancelling the ability to prepare after forcemarching. And I think this would already be enough.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

To my knowledge the chaining simply requires 2 or more paratroopers.
Para 1 jumps into an empty town usually capturing it at Str 4.
It cannot prepare again right away and the town would drop to 3 with no land connection.
Several other troops establish that connection. So the town will grow to 5 next turn.
Now Para 2 forcemarches to where Para 1 landed and prepares itself.
So next turn Para 2 will be able to jump while Para 1 got a 5 supply and can move / forchemarch / made ready again.

This can not be repeated endlessly because you eventually run out of regular units to establish the connection (they can not forcemarch below 5 supply).
But it is super powerful in the early stages of Barbarossa especially down in Ukraine.
Russia has no striking power to even scratch the Paras but is constantly at risk of getting defenders cut off.

The passive spotting nerf already made it a bit harder.
I would fully support cancelling the ability to prepare after forcemarching. And I think this would already be enough.

Agree Airborne/Paras should not be able to 'prepare' after forcemarching. I would add ALL moves.
Copy pasted here from a Discord discussion I was having and your explanation of what Para Chaining actually is, is below:

OCB-"This needs the light of day but be warned, once this goes public more people will do it. In SC-WW1, I was exposing eXploits on the Matrix forum. The devs said they would make changes but mean while suddenly on Steam discussions I saw people complaining about getting hit with the eXploit we were trying to eliminate. This was driving new unsuspecting folks that wanted to try MP, away"..

[formerlybalbo]

This sounds utterly game-breaking, you can't even upgrade and re-en-force a unit in the same turn, but you can do all of this with para-troopers? Terrible.

[BillRunacre]

This sounds utterly game-breaking, you can't even upgrade and re-en-force a unit in the same turn, but you can do all of this with para-troopers? Terrible.

Not any more, as this was fixed last year following the conversations in this thread.

It then led to further discussion after release!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=407472