Helos Hammered!

[Dr. Foo]

I am designing a modern scenario where the units are highly airmobile. I am play testing now and I have noticed that every time the units attempt to move by helo they get pasted by air superiority aircraft.

This is beginning to frustrate me because for test purposes I gave myself a large air superiority advantage and my airmobile units still got plastered. I do not want to remove air superiority aircraft from the scenario as it would be unrealistic to exclude them; however, helos fly close to the ground and generally avoid any anti-air aircraft so I am puzzled as to why they are getting picked up and knocked down with regularity.

The map is quite large 145 x 99 at 25km per hex.

Theater Recon is only 2%

Would setting visibility to overcast or hazy help? But I figure with radar how would that help? If anyone has a workaround I would appreciate any help as I do not want to remove the aircraft just so the helos can fly.

[Fidel_Helms]

Bad weather in a hex does help land units avoid interdiction- I'm not sure if the same would be true of air superiority missions.  If the aircraft aren't all-weather capable though, I'd bet that poor weather would help; it can seriously affect AS and combat support missions.
 
Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.  I remember that Christophe Jaureguiberry ran into this helo interdiction problem when designing his Falklands scenario and couldn't find a way around it.

[Raindem]

I ran into this problem in Campaign for South Vietnam as well. A couple measly MiG's in Hanoi can rough up a troop of helo's near Saigon, in the face of a million to one Allied air supremecy.

I would like to see helos much less vulnerable to air interdiction and perhaps more vulnerable to ground fire & small arms.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Raindem

I ran into this problem in Campaign for South Vietnam as well. A couple measly MiG's in Hanoi can rough up a troop of helo's near Saigon, in the face of a million to one Allied air supremecy.

I think part of the problem is that, unlike with interdiction of land units or airborne movement, the interdiction of heli-borne units does not lead to a standard air superiority clash. So the minimal enemy air superiority level continues to cause damage to the helicopters at each step, whereas against airborne troops they would be knocked out after the first interception.

[Fidel_Helms]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Raindem

I ran into this problem in Campaign for South Vietnam as well. A couple measly MiG's in Hanoi can rough up a troop of helo's near Saigon, in the face of a million to one Allied air supremecy.

I think part of the problem is that, unlike with interdiction of land units or airborne movement, the interdiction of heli-borne units does not lead to a standard air superiority clash. So the minimal enemy air superiority level continues to cause damage to the helicopters at each step, whereas against airborne troops they would be knocked out after the first interception.

That would seem to be the case- although I wonder why these interceptions do not trigger friendly aircraft on air superiority to engage the enemy planes.

[Dr. Foo]

This has really got me bummed it is almost a deal breaker. I have tried everything the only thing that works is the removal of  all air superiority aircraft. That way I have mobility with my airmobile units. I can still have CAS units as the AI places them on combat support or interdiction but it just seems silly to have no AA units on the map whatsoever!

Therefore, I am left with removing all air units or just the AA units. I can enhance the Air Defense units by giving them more SAM's and AAA that way they can shoot down air units attacking airfields or supporting combat. I will then make a note in the scenario briefing explaining why there are no air supremacy aircraft.

Can this be something fixed with a patch or is it a major overhaul issue? Why is this allowed to exist? No one brought it up during beta testing?  What is the rationale for it?  I have never heard of an entire division being wiped out while embarked on helos, sure a few get shot down now and then but come on this is way over the top. [:-]

On second thought I would rather have no air units over just CAS aircraft! Either way both options are absurd. [:@]

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

Can this be something fixed with a patch or is it a major overhaul issue? Why is this allowed to exist? No one brought it up during beta testing?  What is the rationale for it?  I have never heard of an entire division being wiped out while embarked on helos, sure a few get shot down now and then but come on this is way over the top. [:-]

It should be fixed. But in practice this particular problem isn't something that crops up in a lot of situations. Most of the time, either enemy air superiority can be reduced to zero fairly quickly or else they have a sufficiently strong air force that interception of airmobile movement is entirely reasonable.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Most of the time, either enemy air superiority can be reduced to zero fairly quickly or else they have a sufficiently strong air force that interception of airmobile movement is entirely reasonable.

That is my problem, I have two large forces one NATO and the other Soviet/Iraq fighting in Iran and the Persian Gulf region. Both forces rely on airborne and airmobile movement to move troops quickly from one end of the map to the other. Basically for the Soviets it is a race to the Straights of Hormuz, they need units that can traverse the distance quickly and be able to fight when they get there. The armor units will follow at a much slower pace.

However, both have sizable air assets in the region as well. It was not so much the Soviets hitting NATO helos it was the F-15s and F-16s that were lining up the helos like they were shooting fish in a barrel!

Would lowering the number of aircraft in a unit help? I put 24 aircraft per unit (I just pulled that number out of the air it has no relevance to any actual number of aircraft in a unit), what if I used 12 instead of 24 more aircraft might be shot down causing the unit to reorganize before it can hit the helos. [&:]

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

However, both have sizable air assets in the region as well. It was not so much the Soviets hitting NATO helos it was the F-15s and F-16s that were lining up the helos like they were shooting fish in a barrel!

Well, helicopters can be pretty vulnerable.

Would lowering the number of aircraft in a unit help? I put 24 aircraft per unit (I just pulled that number out of the air it has no relevance to any actual number of aircraft in a unit), what if I used 12 instead of 24 more aircraft might be shot down causing the unit to reorganize before it can hit the helos. [&:]

It's difficult to judge since as I understand it you're converting from a board game. What is the total number of aircraft as it stands?

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


It's difficult to judge since as I understand it you're converting from a board game. What is the total number of aircraft as it stands?

Right now zero, the actual game called for a rather large amount of aircraft but I have scraped that OOB as unsuitable for this game. For the board game it was fine as the rules for detecting and attacking helos was vastly different but such rules cannot be modeled by TOAW.

What I am going to do is give each side relatively the same size air force, overtime. However, I am going to give the Soviets a heavy advantage from the start in air superiority then the NATO side will build up its forces. This will not affect the NATO player as most Soviet aircraft have short ranges and they will not hinder movement at this point, as the forces draw closer and aircraft rebase, helo movement will become a concern. I believe this will give the both players the window required to move units to objectives many hexes away. After that, well the player will just have to check the air beefing to see if it is safe to move or maybe they should think about hitting some airfields.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

What I am going to do is give each side relatively the same size air force, overtime. However, I am going to give the Soviets a heavy advantage from the start in air superiority then the NATO side will build up its forces. This will not affect the NATO player as most Soviet aircraft have short ranges and they will not hinder movement at this point, as the forces draw closer and aircraft rebase, helo movement will become a concern. I believe this will give the both players the window required to move units to objectives many hexes away. After that, well the player will just have to check the air beefing to see if it is safe to move or maybe they should think about hitting some airfields.

Also, do conventional movement first if there is any interdiction, or try some airborne movement. Both of these will produce air superiority clashes.

[JAMiAM]

Ben's replies get to the heart of the matter. If helicopters get hammered by enemy AS units, then you need to reduce the enemy AS units. Helicopters are extremely vulnerable to enemy air assets, and if the skies are contested, you can expect that they are not going to last long.

This is where a player needs to start thinking operationally, and utilizing the tactical round system of TOAW III to their advantage. In earlier portions of the turn, move non-helo units first to instigate as many furballs over your moving units as you can, while maintaining local air superiority. Then strike enemy air assets through a combination of air, missle, and artillery attacks on the enemy airfields. If you use ignore loss airfield attacks with unmoved air, missile and artillery units, you should still have 70% of your turn remaining after the initial attacks. Resume moving and drawing forth enemy air, and after you notice the AS ratios turning favorable, try a few small helo moves. If they are successful in penetrating enemy territory, then follow up with reinforcements.

Remember to constantly check the status of your AS units, and the Air Status Report, while you are executing your turn, so that you can return your units to active missions as they get knocked into Rest. This may very well push them into reorg, but if your goal is to achieve air superiority, then you have to make this an active choice, and prioritize your in-game actions to attain that goal.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Ben's replies get to the heart of the matter. If helicopters get hammered by enemy AS units, then you need to reduce the enemy AS units. Helicopters are extremely vulnerable to enemy air assets, and if the skies are contested, you can expect that they are not going to last long.

This is where a player needs to start thinking operationally, and utilizing the tactical round system of TOAW III to their advantage. In earlier portions of the turn, move non-helo units first to instigate as many furballs over your moving units as you can, while maintaining local air superiority. Then strike enemy air assets through a combination of air, missle, and artillery attacks on the enemy airfields. If you use ignore loss airfield attacks with unmoved air, missile and artillery units, you should still have 70% of your turn remaining after the initial attacks. Resume moving and drawing forth enemy air, and after you notice the AS ratios turning favorable, try a few small helo moves. If they are successful in penetrating enemy territory, then follow up with reinforcements.

Remember to constantly check the status of your AS units, and the Air Status Report, while you are executing your turn, so that you can return your units to active missions as they get knocked into Rest. This may very well push them into reorg, but if your goal is to achieve air superiority, then you have to make this an active choice, and prioritize your in-game actions to attain that goal.

This is well and good for a human player and it is sound advice, but when I was play testing it was the PO that was getting hammered, it was moving helos here, there, and everywhere without hitting airfileds first as you mention above.

[Raindem]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Ben's replies get to the heart of the matter. If helicopters get hammered by enemy AS units, then you need to reduce the enemy AS units. Helicopters are extremely vulnerable to enemy air assets, and if the skies are contested, you can expect that they are not going to last long.

This is where a player needs to start thinking operationally, and utilizing the tactical round system of TOAW III to their advantage. In earlier portions of the turn, move non-helo units first to instigate as many furballs over your moving units as you can, while maintaining local air superiority. Then strike enemy air assets through a combination of air, missle, and artillery attacks on the enemy airfields. If you use ignore loss airfield attacks with unmoved air, missile and artillery units, you should still have 70% of your turn remaining after the initial attacks. Resume moving and drawing forth enemy air, and after you notice the AS ratios turning favorable, try a few small helo moves. If they are successful in penetrating enemy territory, then follow up with reinforcements.

Remember to constantly check the status of your AS units, and the Air Status Report, while you are executing your turn, so that you can return your units to active missions as they get knocked into Rest. This may very well push them into reorg, but if your goal is to achieve air superiority, then you have to make this an active choice, and prioritize your in-game actions to attain that goal.

Sage advice but it still glosses over that fact that a bug exists. Even when a side has done everything you suggested and achieved an air superiority of. let's say, 50 to 3, his helo assets will still get mauled. And not just airmobilized units. Moving helicopter units from base to base will trigger the same kind of attacks where the enemy interdicting aircraft are invulvnerable to friendly escorts. Yet moving a regular air unit to another base NEVER triggers attacks.

[Dr. Foo]

Now I am noticing the PO likes to play helo musical chairs.

I have a unit in a VP hex that was quickly surrounded by PO controled Special Forces. They landed but did not attack, on the next turn they got back on the helos and moved to different hexes still surrounding the unit but not attacking. Basically, all they did was trade places and then do nothing. 5 turns later and they still have not attacked just more Helo hokey-pokey!

Bias is set to agressive and the hex is a vp ojective of the unit involved. The unit in the hex is no match for the SF as they would overrun the position with ease. Maybe they are just not sure of themselves. [:'(]

[kutaycosar]

So it turns out that helicopters used to be affected by anti-aircraft attacks during their flights in this game. Sadly not the case anymore. Im playing your campaign for south vietnam scenario(i believe it's yours) but this invincible helicopters bug immersion breaking.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Ben's replies get to the heart of the matter. If helicopters get hammered by enemy AS units, then you need to reduce the enemy AS units. Helicopters are extremely vulnerable to enemy air assets, and if the skies are contested, you can expect that they are not going to last long.

This is where a player needs to start thinking operationally, and utilizing the tactical round system of TOAW III to their advantage. In earlier portions of the turn, move non-helo units first to instigate as many furballs over your moving units as you can, while maintaining local air superiority. Then strike enemy air assets through a combination of air, missle, and artillery attacks on the enemy airfields. If you use ignore loss airfield attacks with unmoved air, missile and artillery units, you should still have 70% of your turn remaining after the initial attacks. Resume moving and drawing forth enemy air, and after you notice the AS ratios turning favorable, try a few small helo moves. If they are successful in penetrating enemy territory, then follow up with reinforcements.

Remember to constantly check the status of your AS units, and the Air Status Report, while you are executing your turn, so that you can return your units to active missions as they get knocked into Rest. This may very well push them into reorg, but if your goal is to achieve air superiority, then you have to make this an active choice, and prioritize your in-game actions to attain that goal.

Sage advice but it still glosses over that fact that a bug exists. Even when a side has done everything you suggested and achieved an air superiority of. let's say, 50 to 3, his helo assets will still get mauled. And not just airmobilized units. Moving helicopter units from base to base will trigger the same kind of attacks where the enemy interdicting aircraft are invulvnerable to friendly escorts. Yet moving a regular air unit to another base NEVER triggers attacks.