It only tickles when hits

[pertsajakilu]

Hi!

Are duds possible in PacWar or are combat reports inaccurate. I haven´t payed any attenion because I have been playing Allies so few odd hits or duds don't matter. There are allways chance to drop more. [:'(]

But now when playing Japan 1944 every good hit cost dozens of aircrafts. In one turn I hit Independece class CVL with 250kg AP (just warm up ), 800kg AP and Type 91 torpedo. It was hardly scratched no flames no nothing. Because I was playing againts puter I checked what happeded. Damage was 8. [X(]

I quess it was bad luck and it is so hard to get hits even with skilled squadrons so disappointment is big when nothing happens after good hits.

Pertsajakilu

[Denniss]

3 damage points came from weapon hit and the other 5 by damage calculations .

Sound very strange to me especially because of the big 800KG bomb and the known very good jap Torpedo and the Independence class is not very big or heavily armored so 800Kg bomb + torp should have a good chance to seriously damage this ship .

On the opposite site a 500lbs bomb often causes serious damage on the big ones Akagi/Kaga and Shokaku/Zuikaku ....... - strange/ahistorical,too

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

3 damage points came from weapon hit and the other 5 by damage calculations .

Sound very strange to me especially because of the big 800KG bomb and the known very good jap Torpedo and the Independence class is not very big or heavily armored so 800Kg bomb + torp should have a good chance to seriously damage this ship .

On the opposite site a 500lbs bomb often causes serious damage on the big ones Akagi/Kaga and Shokaku/Zuikaku ....... - strange/ahistorical,too

Yes, I had same thoughts. Because 800kg + torpedo will give almost any ship quite a punch.
Yep again, I lost one my big carriers from a single 500lb hit from Mitchell. It sunk right away. I have noticed too that Japanese carriers seem to be wery easy to sunk. But perhaps this represents poorer Japanese damage control?

Are there any knowledge where Japanese really used those 800kg bombs? I might have read about it but don't remember.

Pertsajakilu

[boba]

That's because Japanese CVs don't have much armor and durability points (you can check it on TF screen). On the other hand, in my current game I 'm in mid '44 and have lost only one CV as Japanese despite numerous engagments with Allied CVs in '43 and '44 when every one of my CVs took numerous hits from Allied planes. They were severly damaged (some of them for 2-3 times) but only one sunk. I like to think that's because crews are better in damage control (so late in the war) but it's probably plain luck [;)]

I think that Japanese used 800kg bobmbs in Pearl Harbor attack (wasn't BB Arizona hit and sunken by single 800kg bomb that hit ships magazine ?)

ORIGINAL: pertsajakilu
Yes, I had same thoughts. Because 800kg + torpedo will give almost any ship quite a punch.
Yep again, I lost one my big carriers from a single 500lb hit from Mitchell. It sunk right away. I have noticed too that Japanese carriers seem to be wery easy to sunk. But perhaps this represents poorer Japanese damage control?

Are there any knowledge where Japanese really used those 800kg bombs? I might have read about it but don't remember.

Pertsajakilu

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: boba

That's because Japanese CVs don't have much armor and durability points (you can check it on TF screen). On the other hand, in my current game I 'm in mid '44 and have lost only one CV as Japanese despite numerous engagments with Allied CVs in '43 and '44 when every one of my CVs took numerous hits from Allied planes. They were severly damaged (some of them for 2-3 times) but only one sunk. I like to think that's because crews are better in damage control (so late in the war) but it's probably plain luck [;)]

Yep, I am aware that CVs are quite fragile. But because we are playing PacWar I don't think that those things should be taken too seriously ( or any game ). [:)]

Game is fun and not too accurate in repeating history and thats good.

Pertsajakilu

[Capt. Harlock]

Here is what the manual has to say about air-dropped ordnance hitting ships:

[font="Times New Roman"]An armor penetration has occurred if Random(Warhead) > Random(Armor).
If the attacking weapon is a torpedo, Armor is randomized for the purpose of
determining penetration.[/font]
I freely confess I don't fully understand that second sentence. But the gist seems to be that if the target ship has any armor, there is always a chance--however small--that the wepon will fail to penetrate. If this is meant to simulate duds, then I must agree it could have been done better.

To add to the Japanese late-war woes, it seems realistic to me that the chances of duds are higher later in the war. Japanese industry got sloppier as they tried to churn out the necessary volume to keep up with the American inductrial powerhouse. There were also the problems of fewer resources with the submarines gutting their merchant marine.

[CynicAl]

In terms of gameplay, that's just flukey bad luck. However, there are some RL mechanisms which could explain such a result.

AP bombs, such as the Japanese 800kg weapon, don't typically pack a big explosive punch - their MO is to punch through armor and deliver that punch to where it can do the most good (or harm, depending on your PoV). They are not the ideal weapon to use vs. lightly or unarmored ships such as CVs, where the greater blast effects of a semi-AP or even GP bomb would be more likely to start fires and tear things up.

Also, AP weapons typically need a very high striking velocity to achieve full effect; for bombs, that means a high-altitude release to allow time to build up to terminal velocity. The problem here is that high altitude level bombing is very unlikely to result in hits against maneuvering warships! If it helps, you can imagine that the pilot who scored with this weapon did so by boring in at low altitude where the bomb didn't have time to get up to speed before impact.

Additionally, the 800kg bombs did have a fairly high dud rate at Pearl Harbor. Fuses malfunctioned, or bombs simply broke apart upon impact. Only a handful appear to have functioned as designed, even in those nearly ideal circumstances.

The torpedo hit would be less likely to be shrugged off, but even here there are a couple of possibilities. One is that the torpedo was simply a dud - that happened to everyone once in a while (and to US and German submariners more often than that). It's also just possible, however unlikely, that the torpedo struck the extreme bow or extreme stern of the ship, tearing up some hull plating but completely missing anything vital.


On translation:
"An armor penetration has occurred if Random(Warhead) > Random(Armor).
If the attacking weapon is a torpedo, Armor is randomized for the purpose of
determining penetration."

The first sentence seems obvious enough: Warhead rating times a random number is compared to Armor rating times a random number. I think the second sentence means that for torpedo attacks, the ship's Armor rating is ignored, and that the check is made against the "raw" random number. That would give torpedos a chance to lay low even the mightiest of battlewagons... but even dinky little tincans would have a chance of shrugging them off.

[El_Rojo]

The first sentence seems obvious enough: Warhead rating times a random number is compared to Armor rating times a random number. I think the second sentence means that for torpedo attacks, the ship's Armor rating is ignored, and that the check is made against the "raw" random number. That would give torpedos a chance to lay low even the mightiest of battlewagons... but even dinky little tincans would have a chance of shrugging them off.

Which then probably has to do with armor being mostly on top of the ship, and not so much under the waterline.

My interpretation of the torpedo formula was the same. Torpedo's ignore armor.

Duds seem not to be included because any hit does automatically 1 damage points, which is 1% . But the amount of luck in the game however create a rather wide range of possibilities. Which I suppose is sufficient for a game that doesn't do tactical combat, and only tries to cover the strategic aspect of the war.

Personally I hate watching the battle itself, because the random stresses me out. Thank god I haven't multiplayered . Ah well it is statistics in the end anyway.

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: CynicAl

In terms of gameplay, that's just flukey bad luck. However, there are some RL mechanisms which could explain such a result.

AP bombs, such as the Japanese 800kg weapon, don't typically pack a big explosive punch - their MO is to punch through armor and deliver that punch to where it can do the most good (or harm, depending on your PoV).

Also, AP weapons typically need a very high striking velocity to achieve full effect; for bombs, that means a high-altitude release to allow time to build up to terminal velocity. The problem here is that high altitude level bombing is very unlikely to result in hits against maneuvering warships!

Who remembers of formula of the acceleration? We could calculate free fall speed for 800kg bomb at different altitudes. Also we could calculate maximum ipact speed for it. [:'(]

Pertsajakilu

[Capt. Harlock]

The formula is velocity attained equals the squre root of double the distance times acceleration. The acceleration of gravity is about 32.2 feet per second per second, or 9.8 meters per second per second. (Ignoring air resistance.) Thus, if you drop a bomb from 1000 ft altitude, it will achieve about 254 feet per second, or 173 miles per hour. Much further above this, and you should be reaching terminal velocity, where air resistance prevents the object from building up any more speed.

[CynicAl]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

The formula is velocity attained equals the squre root of double the distance times acceleration. The acceleration of gravity is about 32.2 feet per second per second, or 9.8 meters per second per second. (Ignoring air resistance.) Thus, if you drop a bomb from 1000 ft altitude, it will achieve about 254 feet per second, or 173 miles per hour. Much further above this, and you should be reaching terminal velocity, where air resistance prevents the object from building up any more speed.

Aerial bombs were generally fairly streamlined - not for speed, but to avoid tumbling which would spoil the aim - and AP bombs in particular also have a high sectional density. Terminal velocity should be pretty high. IIRC, the rated altitude for the 800kg bomb was ~3000m, or ~9800ft. That's pretty high for level bombing vs. a moving target.

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: CynicAl
the rated altitude for the 800kg bomb was ~3000m, or ~9800ft. That's pretty high for level bombing vs. a moving target.

Quite a high. Perhaps they were intended used against stationary targets only. Were there Japanese plane that had dive bombing capabilities and could carry 800kg bomb. I suppose not.

Pertsajakilu

[boba]

If anyone know which alititude Japanese B5Ns were using in Pearl Harbor attack (the ones which done high level bombing) that should be good enough answer. IMHO they had done good job (at least from their point of view) attacking BBs in harbor. Than again, those BBs were siiting ducks but I gues that BBs and CVs are big enough targets to be hit even when on move... I'm not sure but I think that some Japanese planes at battle of Midway also used 800kg bombs while attacking American CVs...

ORIGINAL: pertsajakilu

ORIGINAL: CynicAl
the rated altitude for the 800kg bomb was ~3000m, or ~9800ft. That's pretty high for level bombing vs. a moving target.

Quite a high. Perhaps they were intended used against stationary targets only. Were there Japanese plane that had dive bombing capabilities and could carry 800kg bomb. I suppose not.

Pertsajakilu

[CynicAl]

Pertsajakilu - to the best of my knowledge, the Japanese never even tried to use this weapon against moving targets.

None of the IJN's purpose-built dive bombers could carry it. The B5N and B6N could carry it, but not dive bomb. The B7A ("Grace") could carry it, and could dive bomb - but they entered service very late, and in very small numbers.

Boba - there is some confusion on the matter, but Fuchida seems to have led the level bombers in at 3000m-3500m at Pearl Harbor. They achieved ~25% hits against stationary targets, which were all bunched up together and for the most part not shooting back.

At sea, those ships would have been spread out, shooting back, and maneuvering at 20 kts - 30 kts for carriers, which would have CAP up as well. Worse, 10,000 ft is high enough for observers below to spot the bomb release and steer the ship away from the impact point.

Some Japanese planes may have been loaded with 800kg bombs at Midway, but strictly for attacks on the airfield. The first attack on the US CVs was conducted by D3A Vals which could not under any circumstances carry one of these weapons. The second attack was carried out by torpedo-armed Kates. The third and final attack was carried out by submarine torpedo.

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: CynicAl

None of the IJN's purpose-built dive bombers could carry it. The B5N and B6N could carry it, but not dive bomb. The B7A ("Grace") could carry it, and could dive bomb - but they entered service very late, and in very small numbers.

I have a faint memory that some twin engined "heavy" bomber would have ( at least planned ) dive bombing capabilities. Anyway that might be my weak memory or some Japanese minor bomber type or prototype.

Grace is an another example of Japans industrys inabilities. Delays after delays and when it's ready war is practically over.

Pertsajakilu

[Denniss]

Memory mixed with German He-177 ?

[pertsajakilu]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Memory mixed with German He-177 ?

No..many Japanese twin engined bombers were designated "heavy" by their standards. Thats what I meant putting that heavy word in my post.
[:)]

By Western standards Japanese bombers were light or medium of course.

Pertsajakilu

[pertsajakilu]

No I think that I remember the plane. P1Y Ginga was IT. I think that at least when prototype was ordered one requirement was dive bombing capability. Was it in few production models I don't know.

Pertsajakilu