New to the game - Basic Questions

[Orm]

Advanced supply question: Should the Italian, and German, units in the north of Iraq be in supply?

1) There is a sea supply route from the Persian Gulf through to the Mediterranean.
2) Iraq is currently a minor liberated by Italy. It was previously conquered by USSR, and (if memory serves) it was at first aligned to Germany.
3) Graziani in Southern Iraq has a primary supply link back to Italy.
4) Rommel has a link, via Graziani, back to Germany.
5) All relevant hexes are controlled by Axis (USSR only controls the hexes in Iraq that they have units in except one border swamp hex).
6) Weather is fine.

So, should Baghdad be a secondary supply source for the Italian unit? For the Germans? And should Baghdad be able to trace supply back to Germany, or Italy, through Rommel and Graziani?

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[rkr1958]

I have a suggestion. Retrograde a temp version to 3.2 and see what supply looks like in that version. I had trouble with secondary supply in my CF3 AAR using the latest MWIF version and had to revert back at times to 3.2 to handle such issues. I even posted a bug report in the testers section.

If you don't access to version 3.2, if you'll post a copy of your game file I'd be happy to take a look.

[Orm]

I am not sure that the units should be in supply according to the rules. MWIF might very well be correct here.

Edit: My view is that the Italian should be in supply, but not the Germans.

Anyway. Here is the save if anyone wants to take a closer look.

[rkr1958]

I am not sure that the units should be in supply according to the rules. MWIF might very well be correct here.

Edit: My view is that the Italian should be in supply, but not the Germans.

Anyway. Here is the save if anyone wants to take a closer look.

3-2-0
(1) No Difference. Italian & German units still out of supply.

999-Supply-3-2-0.png (2.28 MiB) Viewed 349 times

Italian Supply Sources.
3-2-0

999-Supply-3-2-0-2.png (259.33 KiB) Viewed 349 times

7-7-0 (latest beta tester version)
(3) German controlled secondary supply sources dropped from Italian supply sources from version 3-2-0 to 7-7-0.
(4) Or at least not listed.

999-Supply-7-0-0-7.png (232.24 KiB) Viewed 349 times

Axis Relations.
(5) Aligned to Italy, Albania, Libya & Eritrea capitals showing up as secondary supply sources for Italy.
(6) However, Iraq is not.
(7) Observation: Albania, Libya & Eritrea start the game aligned to Italy, Iraq does NOT.
(8) However; is there a difference between aligned and liberated (Iraq) for supply purposes?
(9) Completely conquered by Italy, Ango-Egyptian Sudan capital showing as secondary supply source for Italy.
(10) However, Italy conquered Ethiopia is not.
(11) Observation: Both Ango-Egyptian Sudan & Ethiopia start the game conquered by Italy.
(12) Other folks are better with the rules; but based on what I'm seeing I agree with you that the Italian unit and not the Germans should be in supply.
(13) Also, Iraq's & Sudan's capitals should be included in Italian secondary supply sources?
(14) Or, should only Baghdad be included and Asmara excluded?

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[rkr1958]

(1) Rules expert(s) needed to confirm, or to refute, that the following is indeed a bug.

(2) USSR DOWs Persia, which is aligned to Japan.

(3) The USSR captures Tehran.

(4) Japan debarks an eng div on SCS from the Persian Gulf to Bushehr Oil.

(5) During the end of turn and before conquest, Japan returns to base a Garr army & TRS to Bandar Shapur.

(6) At conquest by the USSR, Japan has ZOC over all there Persia Oil and the ports of Bandar Shapur & Bushehr and after conquest still controls all.

(7) However; and this is a bug I believe, Japan is forced to rebase their TRS and relocate (i.e., teleport) their Garr army & eng div to Italian controlled Ethiopia.

(8) After this forced relocation, Japan still controls the 3 Oil and 2 ports.

(9) Is this forced relocation a bug?

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[Centuur]

RAW:

All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to
the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in,
unless they are at war with the conquerer.

So the Japanese will get kicked out of Persia, if they are not at war with the USSR. After this has been done, then comes:

RAW:

Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of
its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if
more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZoC
of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major
power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same
side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the
conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major
power or minor country controls remains under its control.

So the hexes in which there are no enemy units present or in a ZOC of an enemy unit, becomes controlled by the conquerer. There's the bug...

[rkr1958]

Thanks. So the bug is that control of the Japanese controlled oil and port hexes didn't move to the USSR after the Japanese units were rightly kicked out?

[paulderynck]

Somewhere between 4 and 5 in the narrative, Japan should have DOW'd the USSR if it wanted to keep the oil.

It will get the oil for one turn if it can transport it or use it for re-org, because that happens before conquest.

[Centuur]

Thanks. So the bug is that control of the Japanese controlled oil and port hexes didn't move to the USSR after the Japanese units were rightly kicked out?

Yes.

[rkr1958]

Thanks guys for the valuable responses!

It always pay to wargame out unfamiliar gambits, which I did in this instance, before trying them for real in a live game.

[rkr1958]

Another one for you rule's experts.

Organized cargo aboard TRS or SCS at sea and returning to base at the end of turn,

I thought the cargo flipped; but as coded in MWIF it does NOT. Is this correct?

I guess it make sense as organized CVPs aboard CVs/CVLs returning to base at the end of turn don't flip either.

I tried finding the relevant rule in the rules as written but couldn't.

As a point of reference, I do know that organized cargo returning to base as part of a naval move during the turn (i.e., prior to end of turn, RTB) does flip.

But I guess that's different for the cargo returning to base during the end of turn.

[Orm]

Here is the relevant rule you didn't find. I underlined the relevant part. (The rule is not in the paragraph one would expect but rather in the next one)


Cut from RAC: 13.4.1 Naval unit rebasing
A neutral naval unit can only return to a port controlled by its country or by its controlling major power. In
the case of a neutral major power unit, you may also return it to base to a minor country port controlled by that major
power.
Subject to foreign troop commitments (see 18.2), a naval unit of an active major power (or a minor aligned to
an active major power) can return to any port controlled by an active major power (or by a minor aligned to an
active major power) on its side.
Naval units (but not their cargoes) become disorganized when they return to base during this step.

[Joseignacio]

But I guess that's different for the cargo returning to base during the end of turn.

That's the difference, although it only means anything at all if you play with oil, I think.

[Orm]

But I guess that's different for the cargo returning to base during the end of turn.

That's the difference, although it only means anything at all if you play with oil, I think.

Isolated reorganisation makes a difference as well. Or could rather.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, that could also be.

[rkr1958]

But I guess that's different for the cargo returning to base during the end of turn.

That's the difference, although it only means anything at all if you play with oil, I think.

Isolated reorganisation makes a difference as well. Or could rather.

Thanks! And I am playing with isolated reorg; and it could make a big difference in the upcoming turn.

[rkr1958]

Hey guys, another one that I want to confirm with you.

My understanding is that a resource may leave or enter a hex in an enemy ZOC if occupied. But must stop when it enters a ZOC.

I can't get the RP adjacent to Turin to the Italian factory in Turin. According to the RAW (& RAC), I should be able to, right?

MWIF want to send trade to Turin, first for some reason. As much as I've messed with the situation (10 minutes or so), MWIF refuses to reroute those trade in order to get the adjacent RP to Turin to Turin. Again, I just wanted to confirm that that should be ok?

Thanks.

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[Joseignacio]

You understand the rules correctly. However, I believe MWIF is right.

Here are the RAC:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

You are leaving the 3-3 unit ZOC, which you can do... but you are reaching the 4-3 ZOC.

According strictly to the text in red you should be able to reach the factory, or at least it would be debateable. You had departed from a ZOC and you reach a new ZOC so you need to stop but you stop at the factory hex so you can use it. However it could be argued that the Turin hex does not receive the resource, cause it would stop earlier from the factory (although just with this reasoning I would rule it is usable).

Unfortunately, the following rule, in blue, strongly suggests that only if the resource is at the same location as the factory can it depart and reach in these cases. Besidesm there is the OR. It may leave OR enter. This could be understood as describing abilities, but it can also mean that you cannot do both things, the game understands it in this last sense.

Anyway, be it correct or no, it works like this in MWIF, I have got angry several times about it while I played IT, because the map in the board game is slightly different IIRW, and this situation didnt happen. But MWIF does, you cannot rail it there, in fact, you can usually rail it nowhere beacuse of FR ZOCs.

[Orm]

Hey guys, another one that I want to confirm with you.

My understanding is that a resource may leave or enter a hex in an enemy ZOC if occupied. But must stop when it enters a ZOC.

I can't get the RP adjacent to Turin to the Italian factory in Turin. According to the RAW (& RAC), I should be able to, right?

Yes, you should indeed be able to draw the resource from SW Turin to Turin for production. See picture below-

It should be automatic in MWIF, and instead it is a pain for it to produce. It has often been possible to get it to produce by rerouting the other resources to other factories. But it some versions that is close to impossible. In some versions you may reroute the offending resource to a specific factory, like Trieste, but if you try to another factory it fails. Lately we just edited in an extra BP for Italy when needed as the version we currently play with is a severe pain in this regard.

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[Orm]

Here are the RAC:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

Unfortunately, the following rule, in blue, strongly suggests that only if the resource is at the same location as the factory can it depart and reach in these cases. Besidesm there is the OR. It may leave OR enter. This could be understood as describing abilities, but it can also mean that you cannot do both things, the game understands it in this last sense.

The part of the rule marked in blue is there to tell that you do not need a unit in the factory hex, regardless of ZOC, in order to produce if the resource is in the same hex as the factory.

Therefore:
- You can always produce for a resource if it is drawn to a factory in the same hex. No unit needed.
- If the resource needs to be railed but are in ZOC then you need a friendly unit in the resource hex, and if the factory is in ZOC then you need another friendly unit in the factory hex for it to produce. If there are any hexes between the two then they must be ZOC-free.