Command Range - C+C Off??

[Adamo]

What advantages does being in command range of a commanding unit have when playing with command and control OFF?

I'm wondering if the ability to rally is affected for, say, a rifle squad (C1) within range of a commanding unit (C0).

adam

[Goblin]

It automatically gets the platoon leaders rally check on top of the squad leader. If they are out of 3 hexes, the squad leader makes a check, and then checks to see if its in radio contact to its platoon leader. If not, then the rallying ends at the squad leader level. If you keep your FO and the platoon '0' unit of On-Board artillery within three hexes of your A0 unit, then they are never out of contact on the plotting screen. Make sure to keep the rest of the on-board stuff within three of the platoon leader too.


Goblin

[Adamo]

Goblin, explain that part about the FO again. I obviously must have all subordinate onboard artillery units within 3 hexes of the platoon leader. But, are you saying that if the FO is within three hexes of the A0 (ie HQ unit) then it will always be in contact, as will all the available onboard artillery units?

[Goblin]

If the Platoon leader for the artillery is with three hexes of the A0, and his platoon is within three hexes of him, then they will always be in contact. The A0 is the platoon leader's "leader".

If the FO is within 3 hexes of the A0 unit, he is always in contact. The A0 is the FO's "leader". Having the FO within 3 hexes of your A0 does not guarantee your artillery is going to be in contact, just the FO.

Goblin

[Adamo]

Excellent Goblin, now I get it. Nothing is more frustrating than having artillery out of contact.

Do you suggest keeping all your artillery platoon leaders close to the AO unit? I usually scatter them but it sounds like it might make sense to keep them all close.

[Goblin]

You can keep up to three fairly close. One in front, two behind. Then, if they scatter their platoons three hexes farther away, you are still pretty spread out. Against a human? Make them mobile. Give the A0 a vehicle too, and use SPA or mortars with transport. Move alot. Leave a few out of the 3 hex radius too, and fire them occasionally. Against the AI, you can group them fairly safely. As long as no enemy unit gets Line of Sight on your arty, they wont counter it.

Goblin

[Adamo]

Goblin, you're the best. Excellent advice!

[Goblin]

Convince my wife.[;)]


You are welcome. Go blow something up![:'(]


Goblin

[arethusa]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

If the Platoon leader for the artillery is with three hexes of the A0, and his platoon is within three hexes of him, then they will always be in contact. The A0 is the platoon leader's "leader".

If the FO is within 3 hexes of the A0 unit, he is always in contact. The A0 is the FO's "leader". Having the FO within 3 hexes of your A0 does not guarantee your artillery is going to be in contact, just the FO.

Goblin

What's the point of having an (**) FO if he's going to be back with the (A0) HQ? The reason artillery has a unit like the FO is to direct fire onto the target and make it more accurate. That's why he's called 'FO' for 'Forward Observer'.

If he's not at the front, then anybody can direct artillery just as well.

Unless of course you're also having the HQ up at the front.[X(]

[mine_field]

I think this is discussed elsewhere, but it boils down to this:

There are two schools of thought. One is to keep your HQ and FO back in a safe position so that you don't risk losing them and their help. The FO is able to call in artillery faster than other units, so having him in contact and in a safe position means you will always have quick responding artillery.

The other school says to risk losing these units and move them towards the front lines. You are right in saying that if the FO (or any unit calling in artillery) has LOS, it is 50% more lethal when it hits (as opposed to doing more widespread suppression without LOS).

Some people have more than one FO and keep one in the back to ensure you always have artillery when you need it. Many people feel having the FO and/or HQ up front doesn't help that much, so they tend to leave them in the rear.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: arethusa

ORIGINAL: Goblin

If the Platoon leader for the artillery is with three hexes of the A0, and his platoon is within three hexes of him, then they will always be in contact. The A0 is the platoon leader's "leader".

If the FO is within 3 hexes of the A0 unit, he is always in contact. The A0 is the FO's "leader". Having the FO within 3 hexes of your A0 does not guarantee your artillery is going to be in contact, just the FO.

Goblin

What's the point of having an (**) FO if he's going to be back with the (A0) HQ? The reason artillery has a unit like the FO is to direct fire onto the target and make it more accurate. That's why he's called 'FO' for 'Forward Observer'.

If he's not at the front, then anybody can direct artillery just as well.

Unless of course you're also having the HQ up at the front.[X(]

I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of us have noted that the fire is accurate enough with an FO that isn't sighting anything. Destruction of a sighting FO can be rather high, and if you're campaigning that's a big no-no. In my case, I actually desire a little more scatter than otherwise a direct sight would give me. The FO is a speed thing alone for me, and the more survival he has the more accurate those later battles will be. The basic frontline unit doesn't direct as well as the FO, as they are much more delayed.

[arethusa]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of us have noted that the fire is accurate enough with an FO that isn't sighting anything. Destruction of a sighting FO can be rather high, and if you're campaigning that's a big no-no. In my case, I actually desire a little more scatter than otherwise a direct sight would give me. The FO is a speed thing alone for me, and the more survival he has the more accurate those later battles will be. The basic frontline unit doesn't direct as well as the FO, as they are much more delayed.

Yes, an FO is faster at calling in a barrage than other people, but that was because he had special training in the language used by the artillery and equipped to calculate ranges and direct more accurate fire. Maybe he also got through a bit faster because they responded faster to a voice on the radio that was knew but that would be just human nature.

That being said, yes, I agree that artillery scatter is desirable when you don't know exactly where the target will be on the turn the barrage hits or when you are attacking large groupings of soft targets. On a more stationary target, like an ATG or enemy artillery however, the tighter the cluster of hits, the more destruction you can do, sometimes wiping out the target in one try.

I usually play PBEM instead of campaigns so survival of a specific unit is immaterial. Perhaps it's because my military time was in the artillery but it just seems more realistic to me to have the FO in LOS. The only time we ever heard from our FO's (there were usually 2 attached to each battery) was when we were registering some potential targets (creating the gold points) before a suspected fire mission, or when the FO actually had a target in sight.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: arethusa

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of us have noted that the fire is accurate enough with an FO that isn't sighting anything. Destruction of a sighting FO can be rather high, and if you're campaigning that's a big no-no. In my case, I actually desire a little more scatter than otherwise a direct sight would give me. The FO is a speed thing alone for me, and the more survival he has the more accurate those later battles will be. The basic frontline unit doesn't direct as well as the FO, as they are much more delayed.

Yes, an FO is faster at calling in a barrage than other people, but that was because he had special training in the language used by the artillery and equipped to calculate ranges and direct more accurate fire. Maybe he also got through a bit faster because they responded faster to a voice on the radio that was knew but that would be just human nature.

That being said, yes, I agree that artillery scatter is desirable when you don't know exactly where the target will be on the turn the barrage hits or when you are attacking large groupings of soft targets. On a more stationary target, like an ATG or enemy artillery however, the tighter the cluster of hits, the more destruction you can do, sometimes wiping out the target in one try.

I usually play PBEM instead of campaigns so survival of a specific unit is immaterial. Perhaps it's because my military time was in the artillery but it just seems more realistic to me to have the FO in LOS. The only time we ever heard from our FO's (there were usually 2 attached to each battery) was when we were registering some potential targets (creating the gold points) before a suspected fire mission, or when the FO actually had a target in sight.

Yeah I know in RL it makes more sense, but the game may not penalize enough for indirect spotting, or maybe gives too much credit to units of any ol' Joe spotting as well as they do either.

I'm never interested in hitting a specific hex for the main reason that units always come in pairs or better. Unless the enemy has very cunningly put more than one unit in the same hex (and putting 10 mortar teams in one hex would be cunning in a weird sort of way) it doesn't concern me. I may not be hitting the hex where I'm seeing the smoke, but knowing there's more than one of them suggests that there's another, only it's moving or just chooses to fire at another time. In any event, fire of any sort is accurate enough under that sort of filter, because while the target hex is hit less, it's hit enough around it to get it to achieve at least a "partial hit". A partial hit being that it temporarily makes the unit stop ifring or relocate. Should it relocate, particularly if the splash makes it rout, then it's actually getting hit by the barrage.

I suppose you'd say, I'm looking more for the shell to hit between the firer and the silent gun, thereby creating splash for the both of them. I do target the smokey hex, but I know and accept that maybe only 15% of the shells will hit there. I would definitely dislike hitting that hex 50% or more of the time. If the scatter were twice as bad, I would probably resort to direct sight, but in a campaign, as I play it, the FO is at far too much a risk to be doing any direct sighting considering how accurate it already is.

I think part of this thinking comes from 'waste'. I see one hex pounded into oblivion and I think it waste, as I'm thinking the suppression is 99, two or three times over. I don't see that many destructions of guns from their hex getting hit, so my aim is to suppress them into abandonment. Three 99% leveles of suppression hurts the target no more than one 99%, but if there's hitting between the hexes, though it's still wasteful, but less so, I could for the same amount of effort have both guns at 150% instead (actually both at the 99% level). If there's three guns in the vicinity I might get all three to maybe 80% or higher. If I blew away only one of those guns, then the chances of that gun getting back into firing is considerably higher due to his comrades being perhaps relatively unaffected.

[Belisarius]

Just so you guys know,

an FO is just not a "Forward Observer", he's in fact the Artillery Liaison Officer. Ofcourse he knows how to talk to the artillery, he's one of them!

The arty units 'lend' FOs to the infantry/armor to accompany them to call in strikes. Like the airforce. Which is why, really, an FO shouldn't be able to call in airstrikes and an Air Observer shouldn't be able to call in artillery, but that's just the Game I guess. [;)] In real life, there were always much grinding teeth between army commanders as to who should get the valued observers from the air force and artillery. Everyone wanted one, but it was just the most valued / spearhead units that got one.

Also, an FO should in reality always ALWAYS be at the front so he can spot and realign fire. Our tactic of always keeping an FO in close contact with the HQ is just a trick to get by 'limitations' in the game.

[robot]

I use 2 FOs with my core force. One back with my AO and one up forward. I have had only one time duting nearly 40 battles both were out of contact. I dont see a big difference in either one, up front or in back.

The only time both are back by my AO is when the site range is below 7 hexes. When this happens the forward fo is not too much help as he doesnt see enough of the battle field to be of much use. Such as the battle i have going right now. 1941 Germans defend against the Russians. Visability is only three hexes he becomes almost useless at this range.