Hierarchy Module Document

[Curtis Lemay]

Here's the News Report about the fillings:

[Curtis Lemay]

Now, to "officially" fill using spawned commanders, I'm using my Shiloh 1862 scenario. Note that the Mississippi Army is commanded by a General and there is a General "Available" if he goes down. But, in the editor, I kill Johnston and make Beaurgard unavailable. Now there's no available commander within one rank of General. The vacancy must be filled by spawning a General.

[Curtis Lemay]

Here, Johnston is killed and Beauregard is unavailable:

[Curtis Lemay]

Now, after the next inter-turn phase, the vacancy is filled via a spawned commander:

[Curtis Lemay]

And it shows in the Commander Inventory:

[Curtis Lemay]

Now, I'll show the new events on the popup. The number of new effects has increased from 88 to 90:

[Curtis Lemay]

And now, here is example event usage for the new options:

[Curtis Lemay]

1. One feature remains to be finished. This was the Commander Vacancy Fill procedure. It is now finished.
2. Scenarios need to be modified/designed to incorporate the new features for testing and publication. Six scenarios now so modified: Shiloh 1862; Kaiserschlacht 1918; CFNA 1940-43; Soviet Union 1941; Germany 1945; Okinawa 1945.
3. Those scenarios need to be play-tested to ferret out any remaining bugs with the new features. There are already 3 or 4 bugs identified that remain in the new features.
4. There is a significant suite of legacy bugs that need to be fixed.
5. Language files need to be updated with the text of the new features. There were seven in TOAW-III:
a. English
b. Chinese
c. French
d. Spanish - finished by Josant.
e. German – not yet in TOAW-IV
f. Italian – not yet in TOAW-IV
g. Polish – not yet in TOAW-IV
h. Note to volunteers: Digital Translators make it unnecessary to speak the language to translate.
6. Documentation for the new features needs to be crafted.
7. Scenario Designers will be canvased for any new scenarios to add.
8. Matrix needs to make the installation build for the update.
9. That build needs to be tested.

My estimate/hope is that the release could come in the first quarter of 2025.

Note that I've updated this post, showing the progress. There are still a few bugs with the new module to go (and they are non-trivial). Stay tuned.

[Curtis Lemay]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished. I would be employing a trick to do so.

There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

If we do, then might as well go whole-hog:

1000x1000 map limits
20,000 per side unit limits
2,000 formations per side limits
3,000 commanders per side limits
10,000 placename limits
20,000 events
10,000 equipment list limits

[rhinobones]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished.
There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

Bobby

It appears that for the foreseeable future the number of scenarios updated for this revision will be limited in number. I just do not see people sending a lot of calories adding commanders and all of the data that enables the feature. Maybe some new scenarios will appear, but I expect they will be very few in number.

My questions then become what happens when the updated TOAW is used to play a scenario which has not been updated.

1. Will the new TOAW first populated the unmodified scenario with default placeholder data?
2. Will the new feature to reassign units from formation-to-formation be available when playing unmodified scenarios?
3. Have you (will you) fully tested the ability of the new TOAW engine to play unmodified TOAW IV scenarios?
4. Does the new TOAW editor have any problems or limitations editing TOAW IV and pre-TOAW IV scenarios?
5. Do users need to maintain both a stock TOAW IV program and a new TOAW IV program on their computer?

Think you should concentrate on getting the revision tested and released before you get involved with the “huge” revision. After all, other than yourself and maybe a couple more designers, nobody really cares about having a 1000 X 1000 map. You can make that your next pet project.

Regards

[Curtis Lemay]

It appears that for the foreseeable future the number of scenarios updated for this revision will be limited in number. I just do not see people sending a lot of calories adding commanders and all of the data that enables the feature. Maybe some new scenarios will appear, but I expect they will be very few in number.

Not a lot of scenario design going on now with the old IV. I don't see how all this new functionality can possibly hurt. "If you build it they will come." is how I see it. (Seriously, designers should be chomping at the bit to get at this stuff! I can't wait to get to finishing all the rest of my scenarios.)

My questions then become what happens when the updated TOAW is used to play a scenario which has not been updated.

1. Will the new TOAW first populated the unmodified scenario with default placeholder data?

My checks show that scenario sizes will be about 25% larger - if that was what you're asking. File size is a trivial factor these days.

2. Will the new feature to reassign units from formation-to-formation be available when playing unmodified scenarios?

Yes, for identical units. Designers can modify their scenarios to get back to no reassignment, though. Players will also have equipment upgrade ability (again, with maximum restrictions). And the new Commitment parameter is not optional. The new Bombardment Length parameter that replaces Loss Tolerance for bombardment length is not optional either. Also, Formations and Units now have National Flags and Service Arms (but defaults till designer action). Formations now have sizes. The Day/Night indicator. Air Report has SI and CS values included. Manpower Estimates now shown in multiple reports.

3. Have you (will you) fully tested the ability of the new TOAW engine to play unmodified TOAW IV scenarios?

Beta test is coming.

4. Does the new TOAW editor have any problems or limitations editing TOAW IV and pre-TOAW IV scenarios?

Obviously I modified several TOAW-IV scenarios without issue. Pre-TOAW-IV scenarios become TOAW-IV scenarios before editing.

5. Do users need to maintain both a stock TOAW IV program and a new TOAW IV program on their computer?

Just if they object to minimal unit reassignment and equipment upgrade abilities.

Think you should concentrate on getting the revision tested and released before you get involved with the “huge” revision. After all, other than yourself and maybe a couple more designers, nobody really cares about having a 1000 X 1000 map. You can make that your next pet project.

Tested, yes. Released, no. And don't presume what future players/designers will enjoy. I'm often pressed for more of everything.

[rhinobones]

Think you should concentrate on getting the revision tested and released before you get involved with the “huge” revision. After all, other than yourself and maybe a couple more designers, nobody really cares about having a 1000 X 1000 map. You can make that your next pet project.

Tested, yes. Released, no. And don't presume what future players/designers will enjoy. I'm often pressed for more of everything.

Please do not try to tell me what I may or may not choose to presume. My observation about the utility of the update and its incorporation into TOAW IV scenarios is based on a post I made on 12 January 2025. In it I asked who would be interested in performing updates.

In the past few years there has not exactly been a flood of new scenarios. Will there be a renewed effort to post new scenarios with commanders and hierarchy? I tend to think not, over the past five years that boat has sailed. I'm not trying to be critical, just wondering who, and to what extent, the TOAW community will use this update.

Who plans on updating or writing new scenarios? Please post here.

This posting received three replies. One reply was positive and the other two were non-committal. That leaves you and one other person to update the hundreds of TOAW IV scenarios. Based on this lack of interest, I am skeptical regarding the number of active requestors you have for the "huge" modification. After six years what remains of the community does not need to see mission creep extend the wait.

Regards, RhinoBones

[Curtis Lemay]

Please do not try to tell me what I may or may not choose to presume.

Just pointing out that I get requests for expansion all the time. Note that this expansion germinated on the Development Board. You can't be witness to posts there.

My observation about the utility of the update and its incorporation into TOAW IV scenarios is based on a post I made on 12 January 2025. In it I asked who would be interested in performing updates.

In the past few years there has not exactly been a flood of new scenarios. Will there be a renewed effort to post new scenarios with commanders and hierarchy? I tend to think not, over the past five years that boat has sailed. I'm not trying to be critical, just wondering who, and to what extent, the TOAW community will use this update.

Who plans on updating or writing new scenarios? Please post here.

This posting received three replies. One reply was positive and the other two were non-committal. That leaves you and one other person to update the hundreds of TOAW IV scenarios. Based on this lack of interest, I am skeptical regarding the number of active requestors you have for the "huge" modification. After six years what remains of the community does not need to see mission creep extend the wait.

Only a small fraction of TOAW owners post on this site. And, the launch spotlight should generate renewed interest. Regardless, while I will not be updating anyone else's scenarios, I have a total of 21 separate scenarios (and total with variants are 35). I expect to eventually update all of them with perhaps a new one or two. There will be plenty of material for players to sample.

The "Huge" version should be simple to implement and will be developed while the Beta Test is underway so should not delay anything.

[Ratbag55]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished. I would be employing a trick to do so.

There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

If we do, then might as well go whole-hog:

1000x1000 map limits
20,000 per side unit limits
2,000 formations per side limits
3,000 commanders per side limits
10,000 placename limits
20,000 events
10,000 equipment list limits

This would be amazing (in addition to the already amazing new features).

Would it be possible to increase the number of exclusion zones as well? This would allow for very interesting scenario options for neutral and non-belligerent countries to be activated through events.

Many thanks

[Curtis Lemay]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished. I would be employing a trick to do so.

There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

If we do, then might as well go whole-hog:

1000x1000 map limits
20,000 per side unit limits
2,000 formations per side limits
3,000 commanders per side limits
10,000 placename limits
20,000 events
10,000 equipment list limits

This would be amazing (in addition to the already amazing new features).

Would it be possible to increase the number of exclusion zones as well? This would allow for very interesting scenario options for neutral and non-belligerent countries to be activated through events.

Many thanks

I'm sure it would. But that's a more complicated change requiring a scenario file format expansion. The ones I listed would just be changes to certain parameters - very easy (I think).

Edit: It would also require a graphics mod to go along with it.

[Zovs]

Please do not try to tell me what I may or may not choose to presume.

Just pointing out that I get requests for expansion all the time. Note that this expansion germinated on the Development Board. You can't be witness to posts there.

My observation about the utility of the update and its incorporation into TOAW IV scenarios is based on a post I made on 12 January 2025. In it I asked who would be interested in performing updates.

In the past few years there has not exactly been a flood of new scenarios. Will there be a renewed effort to post new scenarios with commanders and hierarchy? I tend to think not, over the past five years that boat has sailed. I'm not trying to be critical, just wondering who, and to what extent, the TOAW community will use this update.

Who plans on updating or writing new scenarios? Please post here.

This posting received three replies. One reply was positive and the other two were non-committal. That leaves you and one other person to update the hundreds of TOAW IV scenarios. Based on this lack of interest, I am skeptical regarding the number of active requestors you have for the "huge" modification. After six years what remains of the community does not need to see mission creep extend the wait.

Only a small fraction of TOAW owners post on this site. And, the launch spotlight should generate renewed interest. Regardless, while I will not be updating anyone else's scenarios, I have a total of 21 separate scenarios (and total with variants are 35). I expect to eventually update all of them with perhaps a new one or two. There will be plenty of material for players to sample.

The "Huge" version should be simple to implement and will be developed while the Beta Test is underway so should not delay anything.

Bob,

Would it be possible for you to create a small summarized document (with perhaps links to more details) of how to upgrade existing scenarios to use this new (and I'd say extremely complex) hierarchy module?

Sometimes there is just a wall of posts with text and or screenshots and one tends to just glass over it all. But maybe if there was a simplified bite sized document on the basics of what needs to be done then I think that would be a great way to wade into this update.

As it stands in this thread alone there is 10 webpages with 195 posts but I have no idea where or how to start, maybe this is documented somewhere (the dev forums has a 48 webpage with a thread count of 945 posts, just too much to read).

Maybe take a small(ish) scenario that has not been updated yet, and walk a user through the process?

Thanks in advance.

[Curtis Lemay]

Bob,

Would it be possible for you to create a small summarized document (with perhaps links to more details) of how to upgrade existing scenarios to use this new (and I'd say extremely complex) hierarchy module?

Sometimes there is just a wall of posts with text and or screenshots and one tends to just glass over it all. But maybe if there was a simplified bite sized document on the basics of what needs to be done then I think that would be a great way to wade into this update.

As it stands in this thread alone there is 10 webpages with 195 posts but I have no idea where or how to start, maybe this is documented somewhere (the dev forums has a 48 webpage with a thread count of 945 posts, just too much to read).

Maybe take a small(ish) scenario that has not been updated yet, and walk a user through the process?

Thanks in advance.

I'll take a shot at it. But I have a lot of other things to do, so be patient.

[Lobster]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished. I would be employing a trick to do so.

There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

If we do, then might as well go whole-hog:

1000x1000 map limits
20,000 per side unit limits
2,000 formations per side limits
3,000 commanders per side limits
10,000 placename limits
20,000 events
10,000 equipment list limits

Of course I'm all for this. That huge version used to take the map up to a 300x300 size if I recall correctly. Ran into the place name wall with Barbarossa.

[Ratbag55]

While the above means that the only coding-task left is bug-fixing, I'm thinking about adding a few last-minute features after all-else is finished. I would be employing a trick to do so.

There used to be a "Huge" version back in Talonsoft days. (Some of the old-timers will remember it). We could bring that back, and if something drastic crops up in it post launch, the non-huge version would still be good. So...that might be doable.

If we do, then might as well go whole-hog:

1000x1000 map limits
20,000 per side unit limits
2,000 formations per side limits
3,000 commanders per side limits
10,000 placename limits
20,000 events
10,000 equipment list limits

This would be amazing (in addition to the already amazing new features).

Would it be possible to increase the number of exclusion zones as well? This would allow for very interesting scenario options for neutral and non-belligerent countries to be activated through events.

Many thanks

I'm sure it would. But that's a more complicated change requiring a scenario file format expansion. The ones I listed would just be changes to certain parameters - very easy (I think).

Edit: It would also require a graphics mod to go along with it.

Thank you for clarifying.

My non-coder brain imagined a solution where in the map editor, the user would enter the Exclusion Zone number manually rather than pick from a drop-down. Realistically, the user would likely edit the Exclusion Zones in an html editor anyway?

For my understanding - what would be the graphics mod needed to accomplish this functionality?

Many thanks

[Curtis Lemay]

Thank you for clarifying.

My non-coder brain imagined a solution where in the map editor, the user would enter the Exclusion Zone number manually rather than pick from a drop-down. Realistically, the user would likely edit the Exclusion Zones in an html editor anyway?

For my understanding - what would be the graphics mod needed to accomplish this functionality?

Many thanks

Attached are the graphics files that contain the 2D exclusion zone graphics. Note that there are three sizes. There are also two more for the 3D graphics, but they are .bmp and can't be posted here. (Named D3_tiles_misc.bmp and s_D3_tiles_misc.bmp if you want to look them up in the Graphics folder).

The two tile types are cross hatched (one is SW to NE, the other is NW to SE). New zones would have to have variations on this that would be easily recognizable by players. These files would have to be increased in size to accommodate the additional hatching schemes. The graphics would have to be placed exactly, by an expert, so that we can be sure where they are on the file. Then the code would have to encode the exact locations of those graphics so it can find and extract them.

Very non-trivial. Almost as much a challenge as creating a new terrain tile. And that's why this has to wait till the general terrain expansion.