New to the game - Basic Questions

[rkr1958]

I should have checked the table first.... Persia is green, so it should only get partisans against the invading major power (the USSR). This looks like a bug, because against Japan there should not be a possibility of partisans appearing.

Thanks. I'll posted it in the beta forum. I'm sure Steve will get right on it.

[Joseignacio]

Hey guys, thanks. I made a mistake in my original post which I just corrected. USSR invaded Persia, who was aligned to Japan. The current partisan threat is against Japan, who aligned but did not invade.

So I'm now more confused due to confusing you guys.

Centuur says Persia is Red so that's correct the threat is against Japan?

But Jose says it green, which means the threat should be against the Soviet invaders?

In this case, the threat should be against te agressor, i.e. USSR

Sorry if I confused you. I stay by what I wrote except that if the USSR was the invader, the PARTs go only agaist them.

[rkr1958]

Hey guys, thanks. I made a mistake in my original post which I just corrected. USSR invaded Persia, who was aligned to Japan. The current partisan threat is against Japan, who aligned but did not invade.

So I'm now more confused due to confusing you guys.

Centuur says Persia is Red so that's correct the threat is against Japan?

But Jose says it green, which means the threat should be against the Soviet invaders?

In this case, the threat should be against te agressor, i.e. USSR

Sorry if I confused you. I stay by what I wrote except that if the USSR was the invader, the PARTs go only agaist them.

Thanks Jose.

By the way, you didn't confuse me. I confuse me and everyone else.

[rkr1958]

Ok, I'm going with what MWIF is doing on the this one for now.

But, I'd like the WIF rules experts weigh in on whether this is correct or not.

Ok what I didn't know for the past 10+ years and just learned about (M)WiF ... assuming it's correct,

The attack factors for AT div is doubled when ATTACKING a stack with an armor or mech unit. I knew defense factors are doubled when defending against arm or mech; but not when attacking.

[lucliu]

Ok, I'm going with what MWIF is doing on the this one for now.

But, I'd like the WIF rules experts weigh in on whether this is correct or not.

Ok what I didn't know for the past 10+ years and just learned about (M)WiF ... assuming it's correct,

The attack factors for AT div is doubled when ATTACKING a stack with an armor or mech unit. I knew defense factors are doubled when defending against arm or mech; but not when attacking.

Players manual 2, page 131 to 132, Anti-tank units:
If an AT unit has a combat factor circled in red (rather than pink), its combat factors are doubled when it is attacking a hex containing an enemy ARM, HQ-A or MECH unit.

RAC, page 158, Anti-tank units:
If an AT unit has a combat factor circled in red (rather than pink), double its combat factors if it is attacking an enemy ARM, HQ-A or MECH unit.

RAW, page 56, Anti-tank units:
If an AT unit has a combat factor circled in red (rather than pink), double its combat factors if it is attacking an enemy ARM, HQ-A or MECH unit.

[Joseignacio]

Ditto

[rkr1958]

Thanks guys. Been playing this game for over a decade now and just figured this out now with your help.

[rkr1958]

Another Rules Question - Do ZOC extended out of a "neutral" minor power?

Specifically, Japan and China are at war. Japan and France, who controls French Indo-China (FIC), are not.

Would the ZOC of a Nationalist Chinese unit inside of FIC and on the border with China extend into China?

[Joseignacio]

Good question.

I didnt know what to say. Never had the situation.

According to RaC and RaW, I would say it has, from RaW:

2.2
Zones of control
A zone of control (“a ZOC”) is the effect a land unit has on the hex it
occupies and on adjacent hexes.

ZOCs don’t extend:

into, or out of, off-map hexes; or

into the notional hexes represented by hex-dots; or
across alpine hexsides; or
across all-sea hexsides; or
across lake (except when frozen), or straits, hexsides; or
into a hex controlled by a major power or minor country, on the
other side that the unit is not at war with; or
Option 20: (Surprised ZoCs) from a surprised unit.

There is no more info related to what you ask and it is not listed in the "not included" list so I would say yes.

[rkr1958]

Good question.

I didnt know what to say. Never had the situation.

According to RaC and RaW, I would say it has, from RaW:

2.2
Zones of control
A zone of control (“a ZOC”) is the effect a land unit has on the hex it
occupies and on adjacent hexes.

ZOCs don’t extend:

into, or out of, off-map hexes; or

into the notional hexes represented by hex-dots; or
across alpine hexsides; or
across all-sea hexsides; or
across lake (except when frozen), or straits, hexsides; or
into a hex controlled by a major power or minor country, on the
other side that the unit is not at war with; or
Option 20: (Surprised ZoCs) from a surprised unit.

There is no more info related to what you ask and it is not listed in the "not included" list so I would say yes.

Well, let's see how MWIF is coded. I'll need to do some game file editing and exploring; but will let you know shortly (i.e., how MWIF handles this situation).

[rkr1958]

Good question.

I didnt know what to say. Never had the situation.

According to RaC and RaW, I would say it has, from RaW:

2.2
Zones of control
A zone of control (“a ZOC”) is the effect a land unit has on the hex it
occupies and on adjacent hexes.

ZOCs don’t extend:

into, or out of, off-map hexes; or

into the notional hexes represented by hex-dots; or
across alpine hexsides; or
across all-sea hexsides; or
across lake (except when frozen), or straits, hexsides; or
into a hex controlled by a major power or minor country, on the
other side that the unit is not at war with; or
Option 20: (Surprised ZoCs) from a surprised unit.

There is no more info related to what you ask and it is not listed in the "not included" list so I would say yes.

Well, let's see how MWIF is coded. I'll need to do some game file editing and exploring; but will let you know shortly (i.e., how MWIF handles this situation).

And the answer is (according to how MWIF is coded) ... YES, a ZOC does extended out of a "neutral" FIC into China and stops a Japanese unit from moving further.

So what's happening is (I guess), a Chinese unit based in a neutral FIC, is sending elements back and forth across the border into China and disrupting Japanese movement. Now the next question is can one or the other attack across the border?

999-Question-ZOC-1.png (675.41 KiB) Viewed 351 times

[rkr1958]

As Sargent Schultz (from Hogan's Heroes might say), "... Very Interesting ..."

sqt-schultz.jpeg (10.59 KiB) Viewed 348 times

The Japanese unit cannot move into a neutral FIC and is stopped by the ZOC of a Chinese unit inside of FIC. What's very interesting is that the Japanese unit can attack the Chinese unit inside of FIC.

999-Question-ZOC-2.png (1.01 MiB) Viewed 348 times

[paulderynck]

That is in accordance with the rules: 11.16 "your land units can attack enemy land units they are adjacent to." and "The target hex must contain an enemy land unit"

However the Japanese unit should not be able to advance.

I don't see any rule violation in the above two instances. The Nationalist Chinese can be in FIC because it is a major power unit on the same side as an active major power. There's no reason it would lose its ZoC into its own country.

[Joseignacio]

I concur.

Besides, although it is very different, there is some resemblance with the Multiple States of War in the sense that there you can attack units not enemy in enemy hexes; here enemy units in neutral hexes.

In the newer version of the game ( Collectors Edition`, MWIF is earlier Final Edition) there are other exceptions, like in some counted occasions the Axis being able to move and trace through Vichy to attack Allied units if the Allies are adjacent to Vichy's border.

Just to illustrate that special cases do exist.

[rkr1958]

Thanks (again) guys!

I'm just (personally) glad that we have MWIF to enforce rules when it comes to the thorny issue(s) of "Multiple States of War".

I can image that such issue(s) could cause long discussions, debates and rule misinterpretations in face-to-face over the board or vassal play.

[Joseignacio]

They do that, and it is a relief... except for we always have the doubt that it could be a bug. I just learnt a matter that I haver seen it made wrong in each of my like 30-40 board games, re Crete status.

Anyway, players not previously acquantainced with WIF are at a huge disadvantage, they try to do things or create strategies that result invalid, for example to say an extreme case of Rookie, one can build a huge italian surface fleet to hostigate the CW convoys in the Athlantic, and then see that they cannot exit to that sea because of a little detail called Gibraltar.

Of course this is not MWIF or WIF fault but the player for not learning the rules, but what I mean is that a new player is at a huge disadvantage. I taught these details to my current opponent, then practiced several games each with less advice, and he is still surprised sometimes. And at a lesser extent so do I, of course, nobody knows all.

[rkr1958]

(1) Germany Installs Vichy.

(2) Hexes occupied by CW units outside of Vichy become controlled by the CW.

(3) However; hexes in the ZOC of CW units but outside the occupation or ZOC of axis units become controlled by Germany.

(4) Is this correct?

999-Vichy-Question.png (1.52 MiB) Viewed 113 times

[Joseignacio]

Well, I never played it this way with the board game (a small mistake) but

1 - The Vichy rules send us to 13.7.1

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.
Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

2 Both in RaW and RaC 13,7,1 tells us for incomplete conquest (which is the case)

Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZOC of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.

So. IMO it is wrong.

Vichy is full of bugs in this game. For example in my case it has became hostile, which it shouldnt, and besides it doesnt let me lend oil to it from Italy which was the conqueror, and it should.

[rkr1958]

Jose, Thanks again!

Looks like I've got a few minor edits to make for correct for this bug!

[Orm]

Bayonne should indeed be controlled by CW due to ZOC. But Bordeaux should perhaps be controlled by Germany. This because any French Land or aircraft unit in Bordeaux turns the hex to Germany (I suspect that ships is not enough to retain control but will not research it if there is no need). Can not see in the picture if any such unit are there. Otherwise the hex should indeed turn to CW,