BOA Massacre

[Garush]

Hello.

I'd like your opinion on a situation I'm encountering for the first time in Warplan, despite having played this superb and exciting wargame for 1,750 hours (note: I said I really liked it, not that I played it well).

Due to a major mistake on my part (another one, but I learn something new every day...), I lost Gibraltar, the entire Middle East, and southern England, but that's not the point. My point is about the Battle of the Atlantic.

You know that supply convoys are vital for the United Kingdom. So I built a lot of escort ships, and I'm protecting the sea route with destroyers aided by aircraft carriers, successfully throughout the early part of the game. So far, nothing new.

It was then that my opponent, as cunning as he's skilled, implemented a new tactic that proved to be extremely effective, and against which I unfortunately had almost no countermeasures. Instead of chasing merchant ships with his submarines, he uses his surface vessels, which again isn't new. Except that, in addition to doing this on a large scale, he surrounds his ships with his submarines in "Fleet" mode to intercept any of my ships that attempt to engage his warships.



In addition to a "close guard" disposition that one of Stjeand's opponents had already used against him (and for which I can't find the corresponding post), the submarines intercept and attack any surface ships that the Royal Navy and US Navy can send to chase enemy ships. In fact, there is almost never any pursuit because my ships are engaged by the submarines. Of course, the few that manage to make contact (when there is a free hex) have the inevitable "Enemy Fleet Not Found" result. And the planes sent by the aircraft carriers never find their target. I spend a colossal amount of oil for zero results.

On the other hand, Axis ships wreaked havoc on the Anglo-Saxon merchant fleets, since escorts were useless against surface ships.



I know that finding a group of ships in the Atlantic Ocean was extremely difficult at that time. I recall the odyssey of the Bismarck, which was only sunk because one of the Swordfish from the aircraft carrier Ark Royal was lucky enough to destroy its rudder with a torpedo. However, given the losses suffered, I think there's a modeling problem here. Especially since I know very well that simulating the naval part of the war is anything but simple.

It's normal for surface ships to massacre merchant ships. And yes, I know, Gibraltar shouldn't have been lost. But I don't agree with the idea that they can never be damaged even by mobilizing the entire US and British navies. Especially since I have more ships than I need: my opponent refused to allow France to surrender and conquered it entirely. The United Kingdom therefore regained the entire French fleet, now represented by British units in the game. And despite that, the German and Italian ships are absolutely untouchable.

What do you think, guys?

[AlvaroSousa]

This is an unethical cheese play exploiting a vulnerability in the naval system I have not yet resolved.. In every game system there are exploits. Most players don't do this.

I'd message him in game that this is a cheese play. Tell him I said so.

I have been trying to think of a solution to this.

[topolm]

This is an unethical cheese play exploiting a vulnerability in the naval system I have not yet resolved.. In every game system there are exploits. Most players don't do this.

I'd message him in game that this is a cheese play. Tell him I said so.

I have been trying to think of a solution to this.

I'm the one playing this game on the German side.
Why isn't it typical that submarines can't guard surface ships?
The enemy may well use their anti-submarine ships to deactivate my subs first. And then try to attack my surface ships afterwards
It all depends on how the allies guard the trade routes.
It's perfectly possible for the allies not to catch up with my ships, but simply place their security ships along the trade routes.

[ncc1701e]

In Warplan Pacific, I am doing something quite similar. I am sending my CV task force to attack an island. And I am protecting the CV task force with submarines few hexes around.

[AlvaroSousa]

Because they can't reach the force. It's cheesy. The subs block it correct? You can't hit the fleet to attack it.

[topolm]

Because they can't reach the force. It's cheesy. The subs block it correct? You can't hit the fleet to attack it.

If I understand correctly, then I should position the submarines so that the enemy has access to my surface ships?

[Garush]

Just a small but important clarification: I'm not posting this thread to cry/whine/moan about how bad my opponent is, that he's just cheating and that it's not right. I'm just trying to highlight a modeling problem that Alvaro is perfectly aware of, and to read your reactions in order to find a possible solution to this malfunction, probably not for Warplan and Warplan Pacific, but for Warplan 2.

Seas and oceans are divided into hexagons, not large generic maritime zones. This implies restrictions on the number of ships and submarines that can be in a single hexagon at the same time. In addition, a group of submarines cannot occupy the same hexagon as surface ships, friendly or enemy. Finally, a surface ship must be adjacent to an enemy fleet to be able to attack it. However, when a submarine occupies a hex adjacent to a surface ship, the latter can only be attacked by 5 of its adjacent hexes. If it is surrounded by 6 submarines, it becomes impossible for enemy ships to attack it.

The situation is even more serious in Warplan Pacific for small islands with only a single hex to attempt a landing. The defender of the island simply needs to place a submarine in that hex to prevent any landing. You might argue that sinking the submarine in question is enough, but that's easier said than done, even if a submarine is more vulnerable when adjacent to a coastal hex.

Aside from this problem of occupying a single space (a hex), submarines in "Fleet" mode will logically attempt to intercept any enemy ship passing within torpedo range. This is perfectly normal. Except that if this interception succeeds, the fleet attempting to attack loses the ability to pursue enemy surface ships since it has already engaged in combat for the move that cost it an operation point. Similarly, a carrier battle group comprising one or more aircraft carriers will not be able to launch its aircraft at the enemy fleet because it has also engaged in combat. Pursuit or air attack can only take place if the submarines have failed to intercept the new arrivals. I have no quarrel with this principle: captains of aircraft carriers and large surface ships will not behave the same way if they know that the area is swarming with enemy submarines. Except that, once again, ships protected by submarines are virtually untouchable. And if by chance a group of ships or aircraft manages to attempt an attack, it is likely to obtain a "Fleet Not Found" result. Very, very (very) frustrating.

I admit I'm not sure what to propose to solve this problem. One solution could be to force a submarine to leave a hex if warships (not transports) enter the hex, possibly by triggering a combat if the submarine is in fleet mode (to be studied because this would amount to forcing the submarine into combat, even if that's what it's already looking for if it's in "Fleet" mode). To avoid making submarines that are hunting merchant ships flee too easily, we could prohibit this intrusion into the hex if the submarine is in "Raid" mode AND is on a used trade lane. Otherwise, it would be too easy to surround a surface fleet with submarines in "Raid" mode, which would then no longer be forced to leave the hex following the arrival of an enemy fleet, and we would end up with the same problem.

In any case, one thing is certain: despite my opponent's very clever use of this modeling problem, the game we are playing is one of the most exciting I have ever played. Trench warfare in the middle of England, a blocked landing in the Iberian Peninsula, walls of Soviet armor in Russia as early as 1942, the invasion of Persia by the Red Army with the siege of Tehran and its surroundings where two elite Italian mountain infantry units are entrenched, the Iraq campaign where large Russian and American forces, supported by US ships and Soviet Sturmoviks, engage Axis forces composed of Italians, Germans, Spaniards and even a few Iraqi soldiers who got lost in the mountains of Persia (where they met a disastrous fate). I don't know who will win, and frankly I don't care (although I would of course prefer it if I did). What I do know is that I will fight to the end, as usual.

[AlvaroSousa]

Simply put the model intended is not what your opponent is doing.

Glad you are enjoying the game.