So...what if Nazi Germany made peace with Europe after the fall of France in 1940?
Germany controls much of Europe--France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, and much of Poland is now the territory of the Reich. The world of great powers continues with America, the British Empire, German Europe, the Soviet Union, and the Japanese Empire all competing with each other.
What else happens? When are nuclear weapons developed and by whom? Does Japan remain allied with Germany? Do the former French colonies rebel against their new German masters? For Command, it does not matter. Or, rather, it is something that can be determined by individual scenario writers. We do not need a single unified alternate timeline. What matters is what kind of ships, aircraft, and submarines would be produced by Germany, Japan, and Italy.
Obviously, the hypothetical platforms that might be developed would probably be limited to the 1940s or early 1950s, with scenarios mostly set in the 1950s or maybe 1960s. There just isn't much information on what the Nazis were planning on building twenty years after they conquered Europe. But imagine if the ships and aircraft being developed in 1943 or 1945 had been fully tested and gone into production in 1950 or 1955 (no rush if there is no actual war going on, after all). Would we have seen O-type battle cruisers? Arado E.555s? Nuclear-powered Type XXVI submarines? Nakajima Ki-201s? Italian Aquila-class carriers? (Some gaps could be filled by French, Spanish, etc. platforms built during this period, which would have now been built by the Germans, built by the Spanish and sold to the Italians, etc.)
So...what does everyone think? Is it worth pursuing this, not a World War II database for Command, but an alternate 1950s, a colonial wars period and early Cold War, but with the added complication of a multi-polar world? A big question is whether the developers would agree to include these hypothetical platforms in the database, but I suppose that would depend on the range and quality of the proposed platforms.
What do you all think?
CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
Moderator: MOD_Command
CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
Last edited by Mgellis on Sun Jul 06, 2025 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HalfLifeExpert
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Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
First, there simply is no plausible scenario where the Third Reich does not invade the USSR at some point, at least as long as Hitler is alive and his possible replacement is one of his core lieutenants. Conquest of European Russia and Ukraine was a foundational principle of that regime for ideological and economic reasons. Their intent wasn't really to nessecarily fight the British and French, at least not in the near term, but the declarations of war over Poland forced them to deal with that.
There's long been speculation that, in the absence of a German invasion, the Soviets would have attacked the Third Reich first given a few more years. I think such a possibility is plausible given the ideological hatred between the regimes, but I'm not aware of any reliable sources showing that such a move was Stalin's intent. And in this period, Soviet policy IS Stalin.
For nuclear weapons, I think the US bomb project would have still happened, but it may not have gotten the same level of funding without an active war, but conversely, a "victorious" Germany would still have given plenty of incentive to get that weapon.
It's an open question as to whether Germany could have gotten the bomb without the burden of an active war hogging most critical resources. They would still have been at a disadvantage compared to the US, both from the ideological "brain drain" that hampered their physics capacity, as well as lack of specialized resources. Remember, the primary source of Uranium for the A-Bombs by 1945 was the Belgian Congo, and there's no way the other powers would have let Germany get access to that.
Additionally, according to Richard Rhodes's The Making of the Atomic Bomb, by the end of 1942, the German atomic research project had largely given up on critical mass fission needed for a bomb, since their limited capacity made them doubt the feasibility of enough of a chain reaction. After that point, the project really concentrated on nuclear power generation, which they absolutely could have achieved given enough time. So in such a hypothetical world, I think we would see nuclear powered -U-Boats maybe by the mid 1950s.
Further study of radiation would have allowed Germany to develop radiological (dirty) bombs however, and that's almost as terrifying a prospect as a Third Reich with a proper nuclear arsenal. The people of the Northern Hemisphere would suffer catastrophically in such cases.
At that stage, in the absence of a bomb actually being used, I don't think there would have been anyone else who would drive to get the bomb apart from the Anglo-Americans and the Third Reich. Japan did have a program, but the Pacific War drained so much resources that I really don't see them being able to get very far. The Soviets would be in more desperate circumstances that would preclude them from expending valuable resources on such an unknown quantity.
There was likely going to be a Pacific War with Japan fighting the Western Allies regardless of what happened in Europe, and Japan was largely doomed to lose with or without a European war going on. The one change a victorious Germany could bring would be a Japanese assault on a weakened USSR.
As for a German naval build up, I think it would be kind if a mess. Hitler didn't really give a whole lot of thought to naval war, since his concerns were primarily continental against the Soviets. On top of this, there was dreadful inter-service rivalry between the Luftwaffe led by Goering and the Kriegsmarine. Aircraft carriers were the future, and Goering's Luftwaffe would have fought with the Kriegsmarine at every step over any kind of naval aviation, because they did so historically. Remember, Goering had enough sway to even get Infantry and Panzer divisions in his Luftwaffe. Hitler actively thrived off of formenting rivalries among his subordinates.
Such a mess would not have produced a naval force that could take on the Royal Navy and US Navy. Even with a "peace", the Royal Navy would be itching to strike back, given Britain's long national policy of not allowing any one nation to dominate mainland Europe. The RN would massively build up, and combined with the US Navy, the Kriegsmarine wouldn't stand a chance.
Ultimately, the only way I can conceive of such a scenario that you describe would be if Hitler was killed and the Regime overthrown by anti-Nazi elements of the military before June 1941, and that would be a tall ask since the period after France's surrender was the height of Hitler's domestic popularity, since even those ambivalent about his regime did approve of the " payback" for the infamous defeat in 1918. Such a coup at that point could have led to internal clashes or even civil war in the Reich.
There's long been speculation that, in the absence of a German invasion, the Soviets would have attacked the Third Reich first given a few more years. I think such a possibility is plausible given the ideological hatred between the regimes, but I'm not aware of any reliable sources showing that such a move was Stalin's intent. And in this period, Soviet policy IS Stalin.
For nuclear weapons, I think the US bomb project would have still happened, but it may not have gotten the same level of funding without an active war, but conversely, a "victorious" Germany would still have given plenty of incentive to get that weapon.
It's an open question as to whether Germany could have gotten the bomb without the burden of an active war hogging most critical resources. They would still have been at a disadvantage compared to the US, both from the ideological "brain drain" that hampered their physics capacity, as well as lack of specialized resources. Remember, the primary source of Uranium for the A-Bombs by 1945 was the Belgian Congo, and there's no way the other powers would have let Germany get access to that.
Additionally, according to Richard Rhodes's The Making of the Atomic Bomb, by the end of 1942, the German atomic research project had largely given up on critical mass fission needed for a bomb, since their limited capacity made them doubt the feasibility of enough of a chain reaction. After that point, the project really concentrated on nuclear power generation, which they absolutely could have achieved given enough time. So in such a hypothetical world, I think we would see nuclear powered -U-Boats maybe by the mid 1950s.
Further study of radiation would have allowed Germany to develop radiological (dirty) bombs however, and that's almost as terrifying a prospect as a Third Reich with a proper nuclear arsenal. The people of the Northern Hemisphere would suffer catastrophically in such cases.
At that stage, in the absence of a bomb actually being used, I don't think there would have been anyone else who would drive to get the bomb apart from the Anglo-Americans and the Third Reich. Japan did have a program, but the Pacific War drained so much resources that I really don't see them being able to get very far. The Soviets would be in more desperate circumstances that would preclude them from expending valuable resources on such an unknown quantity.
There was likely going to be a Pacific War with Japan fighting the Western Allies regardless of what happened in Europe, and Japan was largely doomed to lose with or without a European war going on. The one change a victorious Germany could bring would be a Japanese assault on a weakened USSR.
As for a German naval build up, I think it would be kind if a mess. Hitler didn't really give a whole lot of thought to naval war, since his concerns were primarily continental against the Soviets. On top of this, there was dreadful inter-service rivalry between the Luftwaffe led by Goering and the Kriegsmarine. Aircraft carriers were the future, and Goering's Luftwaffe would have fought with the Kriegsmarine at every step over any kind of naval aviation, because they did so historically. Remember, Goering had enough sway to even get Infantry and Panzer divisions in his Luftwaffe. Hitler actively thrived off of formenting rivalries among his subordinates.
Such a mess would not have produced a naval force that could take on the Royal Navy and US Navy. Even with a "peace", the Royal Navy would be itching to strike back, given Britain's long national policy of not allowing any one nation to dominate mainland Europe. The RN would massively build up, and combined with the US Navy, the Kriegsmarine wouldn't stand a chance.
Ultimately, the only way I can conceive of such a scenario that you describe would be if Hitler was killed and the Regime overthrown by anti-Nazi elements of the military before June 1941, and that would be a tall ask since the period after France's surrender was the height of Hitler's domestic popularity, since even those ambivalent about his regime did approve of the " payback" for the infamous defeat in 1918. Such a coup at that point could have led to internal clashes or even civil war in the Reich.
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SunlitZelkova
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Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
TL/DR: Most nations had armament plans stretching into the late 1940s, and these provide a reasonable idea of what might have been on hand in the early 1950s. Combined with prototype and "paper" aircraft, these designs provide plentiful material for an alternate "late" WWII database. As a matter of fact I think that if a WW2DB was released, adding such units would make perfect sense, given the addition of a number of hypothetical units to the DB3000 that would have entered service had the Cold War continued into the 90s and 21st century.
I think the point of this would essentially be fun, because as HalfLifeExpert pointed out a hard historical analysis says no to a lot of the imagined possibilities. But a lot of the hypothetical scenarios in Command are pretty outlandish anyways, so I don't think there is anything wrong with letting imaginations run wild. I'll add to your German peace by assuming that the Kwantung Army basically decided that "Manchuria was enough" in 1937 and adhered to the Japanese government's intention to pursue diplomacy with China, meaning that at least for now, an uneasy peace exists between the two and there is no crisis between the US and Japan that rapidly escalates into war.
Making these kinds of additions to the database would actually be easy... to an extent. This is because most nations had their arms buildups planned out to the late 1940s.
Alongside Germany's Plan Z, the Soviet Union had their own "Big Ocean-Going Fleet" program intended to similarly expand the size of the VMF by 1947. Germany and the USSR's plans roughly paralleled each other in that they primarily focused on traditional gun-armed surface combatants, with only a minor force of aircraft carriers planned. Some of the Soviet units are actually in the game, albeit with post-war weapons- the Project 71 and 72 aircraft carriers and the Project 69 battlecruisers originated prior to World War II, and were briefly revived after it. The Project 24 battleship is an evolved version of the famous Sovetsky Soyuz-class.
Japan and the USA were both naval countries and their navies would strongly resemble what they actually built, albeit in greater numbers and perhaps with greater quality. Taiho-class carriers, a greater number of Yamato-class battleships, and modern light cruisers (in real life, a majority of Japan's light cruisers during WWII dated back to the 1920s and early 30s) would fill the IJN's ranks. The US Navy would look quite a bit like its real life self, but with greater numbers of ships that only saw a few units completed, like the Alaska-class battlecruisers. In addition, it is possible the Montana-class battleships would enter service.
Japan and Germany would have major advantages in submarine technology, but the Allies would equally have mass-produced their own ASW equipment. Whether these better subs could break through 1945-level ASW defenses to create a "Battle of the Atlantic panic" would be interesting to ponder.
Unfortunately I don't know enough about British and Italian naval history to say anything about their plans.
Aircraft would also look strongly like real life, simply in great numbers. The B-36 would enter widespread service in the US, as it was originally designed to bomb Germany from the US mainland. Germany might similarly put Amerika Bombers into service, while Japan might successfully develop its Fugaku intercontinental bomber, alongside the B-29-equivalent Ki-91. Both sides would have first and second generation jet fighters in service, such as the Meteor, Vampire, P-80, P-86, Me 262 and Ta 183, although these would probably serve alongside superprops like the P-51H, Ta 152, and A7M given their limitations. The USSR would suffer the most here; their aviation industry was fairly backwards and was heavily reliant on a mix of captured German technology and equipment purchased from the Allies to make the leap into the technological superpower they were in real life. Without that, they would be building more reliable versions of Yak-9s, La-7s, and Il-2/10s. They might not have any jet aircraft at all.
Nuclear development will still occur in the US, as the scientists who pressed Roosevelt to start a program mainly did so out of fear that Germany was building a bomb- and they weren't aware Germany was not building a bomb until well after the Manhattan Project got underway. At that point it might be too late to stop it. Without wartime security measures keeping the project secret, Germany and others would likely inevitably get word of the creation of the bomb. Whether they actually decide to pursue their own weapon is up for debate; in real life a number of nations that had tensions with nuclear powers still did not decide to build nuclear weapons until many years after their adversary got them (namely India, against China). Economics and institutional factors play a role.
Despite all the advancements in technology, scenarios built using these units would probably be the epitome of "WWII with better bullets." Each side had long developed, carefully considered plans about how they expected a conflict with each other to play out, and their armament programs reflected this to a great extent. Thus the US Navy and IJN would still be building with a big, decisive battle for the Philippines in mind- not Pearl Harbor and an attrition campaign in the Solomons. A lot of Germany's advanced weapons like SAMs and ATGMs might not get produced, as their development was mainly spurred by setbacks with traditional weapons. I think 1950 or so is a reasonable cutoff date for this hypothetical OOB, because going past there would require creating fictional designs. Then again... an old DB version in CMANO did have Godzilla, so maybe the devs would be up for something silly like that.
I could go on about tanks but that wouldn't be all that relevant to CMO
I think the point of this would essentially be fun, because as HalfLifeExpert pointed out a hard historical analysis says no to a lot of the imagined possibilities. But a lot of the hypothetical scenarios in Command are pretty outlandish anyways, so I don't think there is anything wrong with letting imaginations run wild. I'll add to your German peace by assuming that the Kwantung Army basically decided that "Manchuria was enough" in 1937 and adhered to the Japanese government's intention to pursue diplomacy with China, meaning that at least for now, an uneasy peace exists between the two and there is no crisis between the US and Japan that rapidly escalates into war.
Making these kinds of additions to the database would actually be easy... to an extent. This is because most nations had their arms buildups planned out to the late 1940s.
Alongside Germany's Plan Z, the Soviet Union had their own "Big Ocean-Going Fleet" program intended to similarly expand the size of the VMF by 1947. Germany and the USSR's plans roughly paralleled each other in that they primarily focused on traditional gun-armed surface combatants, with only a minor force of aircraft carriers planned. Some of the Soviet units are actually in the game, albeit with post-war weapons- the Project 71 and 72 aircraft carriers and the Project 69 battlecruisers originated prior to World War II, and were briefly revived after it. The Project 24 battleship is an evolved version of the famous Sovetsky Soyuz-class.
Japan and the USA were both naval countries and their navies would strongly resemble what they actually built, albeit in greater numbers and perhaps with greater quality. Taiho-class carriers, a greater number of Yamato-class battleships, and modern light cruisers (in real life, a majority of Japan's light cruisers during WWII dated back to the 1920s and early 30s) would fill the IJN's ranks. The US Navy would look quite a bit like its real life self, but with greater numbers of ships that only saw a few units completed, like the Alaska-class battlecruisers. In addition, it is possible the Montana-class battleships would enter service.
Japan and Germany would have major advantages in submarine technology, but the Allies would equally have mass-produced their own ASW equipment. Whether these better subs could break through 1945-level ASW defenses to create a "Battle of the Atlantic panic" would be interesting to ponder.
Unfortunately I don't know enough about British and Italian naval history to say anything about their plans.
Aircraft would also look strongly like real life, simply in great numbers. The B-36 would enter widespread service in the US, as it was originally designed to bomb Germany from the US mainland. Germany might similarly put Amerika Bombers into service, while Japan might successfully develop its Fugaku intercontinental bomber, alongside the B-29-equivalent Ki-91. Both sides would have first and second generation jet fighters in service, such as the Meteor, Vampire, P-80, P-86, Me 262 and Ta 183, although these would probably serve alongside superprops like the P-51H, Ta 152, and A7M given their limitations. The USSR would suffer the most here; their aviation industry was fairly backwards and was heavily reliant on a mix of captured German technology and equipment purchased from the Allies to make the leap into the technological superpower they were in real life. Without that, they would be building more reliable versions of Yak-9s, La-7s, and Il-2/10s. They might not have any jet aircraft at all.
Nuclear development will still occur in the US, as the scientists who pressed Roosevelt to start a program mainly did so out of fear that Germany was building a bomb- and they weren't aware Germany was not building a bomb until well after the Manhattan Project got underway. At that point it might be too late to stop it. Without wartime security measures keeping the project secret, Germany and others would likely inevitably get word of the creation of the bomb. Whether they actually decide to pursue their own weapon is up for debate; in real life a number of nations that had tensions with nuclear powers still did not decide to build nuclear weapons until many years after their adversary got them (namely India, against China). Economics and institutional factors play a role.
Despite all the advancements in technology, scenarios built using these units would probably be the epitome of "WWII with better bullets." Each side had long developed, carefully considered plans about how they expected a conflict with each other to play out, and their armament programs reflected this to a great extent. Thus the US Navy and IJN would still be building with a big, decisive battle for the Philippines in mind- not Pearl Harbor and an attrition campaign in the Solomons. A lot of Germany's advanced weapons like SAMs and ATGMs might not get produced, as their development was mainly spurred by setbacks with traditional weapons. I think 1950 or so is a reasonable cutoff date for this hypothetical OOB, because going past there would require creating fictional designs. Then again... an old DB version in CMANO did have Godzilla, so maybe the devs would be up for something silly like that.
I could go on about tanks but that wouldn't be all that relevant to CMO
"One must not consider the individual objects without the whole."- Generalleutnant Gerhard von Scharnhorst, Royal Prussian Army
Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
I'm not going to answer for the DB team but I suspect the answer is no. Hypotheticals that existed on paper, even on a napkin, can be justified even if most of the parameters have to be made up.Mgellis wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2025 3:41 am A big question is whether the developers would agree to include these hypothetical platforms in the database, but I suppose that would depend on the range and quality of the proposed platforms.
But something that is completely made up, opens up doors I'm not sure we want to open.
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tylerblakebrandon
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Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
I would simply recommend watching Dr Alexander Clarke on YouTube to get an idea of where the UK and Italy would go as he has done some interesting thought experiments.
Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
Absolutely agree. While I hope a few truly fanciful platforms (sea monsters, flying saucers, etc.) might someday be added to the databases, because they would be fun, I think we should limit most hypothetical platforms to those with some basis in reality. That's why I was thinking the platforms would probably be limited to those that might have been built up to about 1950, 1955, or possibly, at the outside,1960 (and thus possibly in service through 1980). Some of the "napkin" designs and improved versions of existing designs like the Me 262 would have taken that long to get into production. Beyond that, though, we're entering the realm of "completely made up" and (with a few special exceptions) those probably do not belong in Command.
Kushan04 wrote: Tue Jul 08, 2025 12:54 amI'm not going to answer for the DB team but I suspect the answer is no. Hypotheticals that existed on paper, even on a napkin, can be justified even if most of the parameters have to be made up.Mgellis wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2025 3:41 am A big question is whether the developers would agree to include these hypothetical platforms in the database, but I suppose that would depend on the range and quality of the proposed platforms.
But something that is completely made up, opens up doors I'm not sure we want to open.
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HalfLifeExpert
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Re: CWDB thought experiment...Greater Germany
Not gonna lie, since UAPs are being taken seriously by the United States DOD, I'd honestly really enjoy having some generic ones in the DB, as kind of "biologics" of the air. On a serious note, "biologics of the air" could be a more grounded DB addition in the sense of large bird flocks, locust swarms, or even lost balloon clusters messing with Radar screens.
There are recorded instances of military jets attempting to intercept such unidentified contacts and struggling, so It would be kind of neat to experiment with such situations, admittedly with only educated guesses on the UAP's abilities.
The objects in question don't necessarily have to have any weapons to defend themselves
I suspect that they might work somewhat more in the CWDB, due to older radars not being as reliable and having lower resolutions, but the 2004 USS Nimitz incident would mandate them being in the DB3000 as well.
I also think a couple of large sea creatures other than whales could be fun instances to actually do something with biologics rather than as Sonar clutter.
Not too long ago, I learned about the USS Stein incident in 1978 when the frigate accidentally collided with something underwater, damaging its bow sonar dome. Examination in drydock showed that it had apparently collided with a massive squid. That made me think of a fun hypothetical scenario where the USN returns to the area for an ASW exercise with the Chilean navy, but has the secret side objective of finding this massive squid species.
There are recorded instances of military jets attempting to intercept such unidentified contacts and struggling, so It would be kind of neat to experiment with such situations, admittedly with only educated guesses on the UAP's abilities.
The objects in question don't necessarily have to have any weapons to defend themselves
I suspect that they might work somewhat more in the CWDB, due to older radars not being as reliable and having lower resolutions, but the 2004 USS Nimitz incident would mandate them being in the DB3000 as well.
I also think a couple of large sea creatures other than whales could be fun instances to actually do something with biologics rather than as Sonar clutter.
Not too long ago, I learned about the USS Stein incident in 1978 when the frigate accidentally collided with something underwater, damaging its bow sonar dome. Examination in drydock showed that it had apparently collided with a massive squid. That made me think of a fun hypothetical scenario where the USN returns to the area for an ASW exercise with the Chilean navy, but has the secret side objective of finding this massive squid species.