Who ruined this game so much?

[daretti]

I returned to my favorite game with the latest patch, and what do I see in December 1941? The Soviet army has tons of armored and mechanized divisions!!!! Did someone fire the people working on the historical aspect of the game? There was no such thing in the first game... At this stage of the war, the USSR had its own armored brigades (quite weak, but that's how they were supposed to be). There's nothing like that here. It's a disaster!!! Didn't anyone notice? Doesn't anyone care?

[Denniss]

By 12/41 there should not be any mech div bar one as the majority is set up to convert to Rifle Divs.
Tank divs may live longer if they are not mauled in combat, a downgrade to Tank Bdes is forced in early 42. Some Tank divs in the Far East stay that way though.

[Wiedrock]

I returned to my favorite game with the latest patch, and what do I see in December 1941? The Soviet army has tons of armored and mechanized divisions!!!! Did someone fire the people working on the historical aspect of the game? There was no such thing in the first game... At this stage of the war, the USSR had its own armored brigades (quite weak, but that's how they were supposed to be). There's nothing like that here. It's a disaster!!! Didn't anyone notice? Doesn't anyone care?

Concerning Winter:
Have you looked up all the WITE2 Rules regarding the special first winter rules (#Heavy Snow Hexes (not Blizzard hexes))?
If you get crushed it has not necessarily to do with the type of the Division you are facing.

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Most of those Divisions are set up like the attachment.

Afaik, If you do not DEPLETE or SURRENDER a Mechanized Division it will stay a Mechanized Division (EDIT: Until 03/1942 at least, confused it with the "Mot. Divisions" we recently discussed elsewhere.), but they will from T12 onwards all (that includes those respawning after SURRENDER (there is a period in 1941 where many units will respawn with 0 TOE like ~15 turns after surrendering)) be converted to Rifle Divisions after being at least DEPLETED.

Tank Divisions about the same, they will become Tank Brigades and will additionally (all) be converted automatically on T32 into Brigades.

The Soviet TOE is probably more (influences by your actual gameplay) than in WITE1 I assume.

[daretti]

I returned to my favorite game with the latest patch, and what do I see in December 1941? The Soviet army has tons of armored and mechanized divisions!!!! Did someone fire the people working on the historical aspect of the game? There was no such thing in the first game... At this stage of the war, the USSR had its own armored brigades (quite weak, but that's how they were supposed to be). There's nothing like that here. It's a disaster!!! Didn't anyone notice? Doesn't anyone care?

Concerning Winter:
Have you looked up all the WITE2 Rules regarding the special first winter rules (#Heavy Snow Hexes (not Blizzard hexes))?
If you get crushed it has not necessarily to do with the type of the Division you are facing.

---

Most of those Divisions are set up like the attachment.

Afaik, If you do not DEPLETE or SURRENDER a Mechanized Division it will stay a Mechanized Division, but they will from T12 onwards all (that includes those respawning after SURRENDER (there is a period in 1941 where many units will respawn with 0 TOE like ~15 turns after surrendering)) be converted to Rifle Divisions after being at least DEPLETED.

Tank Divisions about the same, they will become Tank Brigades and will additionally (all) be converted automatically on T32 into Brigades.

The Soviet TOE is probably more (influences by your actual gameplay) than in WITE1 I assume.

It's December 14th. I see 20 armored divisions and several mechanized divisions on the enemy front... Is that okay in your opinion? The latest patch.

[Wiedrock]

How many AFV losses have you caused in total to the Soviets?
How much manpower does the Soviet OOB have, MAP/Total?

[daretti]

How many AFV losses have you caused in total to the Soviets?
How much manpower does the Soviet OOB have, MAP/Total?

And what does that matter? At this stage, there shouldn't be so many armored and mechanized divisions, only armored brigades.

[Wiedrock]

How many AFV losses have you caused in total to the Soviets?
How much manpower does the Soviet OOB have, MAP/Total?

And what does that matter? At this stage, there shouldn't be so many armored and mechanized divisions, only armored brigades.

I am asking because 20TDs seems like a lot left. Meaning that you can't have destroyed all that many AFVs (at historic levels), so if you do not 'destroy historic', why you expect Soviet TOE to 'be historic'?

The Soviets had a Tank Division TOE with ~6kMen, they even created ~10 new TDs. Those Divisions didn't exist in this large quantities in winter because they've been wiped out in summer/autumn 1941. So again, If you do not wipe them out, why wouldn't they be there?

Errata to my initial Post:
The "Mech" all become Rifle Divisions in spring 1942, I confused Mech and Mot., we recently discussed Mot. elsewhere, some Mot./Mot.NKVD stick around, not the "Mech." (...altough they stick around for longer than historic if you do not DEPLETE them).

EDIT:
Here you can see the Mechanized Divisions Timelines, the "МОТОРИЗОВАННЫЕ" should be the Mechanized ones (translates both into Motorized for me).

[daretti]

How many AFV losses have you caused in total to the Soviets?
How much manpower does the Soviet OOB have, MAP/Total?

And what does that matter? At this stage, there shouldn't be so many armored and mechanized divisions, only armored brigades.

I am asking because 20TDs seems like a lot left. Meaning that you can't have destroyed all that many AFVs (at historic levels), so if you do not 'destroy historic', why you expect Soviet TOE to 'be historic'?

The Soviets had a Tank Division TOE with ~6kMen, they even created ~10 new TDs. Those Divisions didn't exist in this large quantities in winter because they've been wiped out in summer/autumn 1941. So again, If you do not wipe them out, why wouldn't they be there?

Errata to my initial Post:
The "Mech" all become Rifle Divisions in spring 1942, I confused Mech and Mot., we recently discussed Mot. elsewhere, some Mot./Mot.NKVD stick around, not the "Mech." (...altough they stick around for longer than historic if you do not DEPLETE them).

EDIT:
Here you can see the Mechanized Divisions Timelines, the "МОТОРИЗОВАННЫЕ" should be the Mechanized ones (translates both into Motorized for me).

Even if they survived because the enemy was actually fleeing and avoiding combat, they should have turned into armored brigades at this stage.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Like Wiedrock said - armored divisions that have not already changed to brigades because of destruction/depletion will change on T32 (25/01/42). So if you are in December you should see that happen pretty soon.

[Wiedrock]

Remember that Game designers have to make decisions/design choices. In a game like this, History schedules stand against "your own impact on things". Some people prefer the one, some the other, a Dev can't make everyone happy with one solution.

With the Mech Divisions I could agree, since none have been around anymore in Winter and none to be freshly build. So there it may be reasonable to Upgrade them to the 12/41 Rifle Divisions TOE in December already (would still take a while for all to be converted).

But Tanks as said, still had the 6k Men TOE actively used and fresh Divisions built, they just got devastated in autumn.
What may be part of your issue of the many Tank Divisions is that many start the DEPLETE-conversion rather late (e.g. T12-T16), while some earlier, it should probably be all on earlier turns (once the Brigade TOE is available). But this varying/late numbers are probably caused by the historical dates of the Divisions.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I returned to my favorite game with the latest patch, and what do I see in December 1941? The Soviet army has tons of armored and mechanized divisions!!!! Did someone fire the people working on the historical aspect of the game? There was no such thing in the first game... At this stage of the war, the USSR had its own armored brigades (quite weak, but that's how they were supposed to be). There's nothing like that here. It's a disaster!!! Didn't anyone notice? Doesn't anyone care?

Welcome back!

You have some disaster pictures to share of the amount of armor/Mech? Would love to see them.

It is kind of a catch 22. If the Germans do an extended Lvov pocket the Soviet player is disturbed/upset because most of their Mech & Armor gets surrounded in the South. If no Lvov pocket or the Soviet player takes care of their Mech & Armor not to get them lost. Then you can end up with what it seems you are describing. It can be annoying for both sides and each of these situations start from turn 1. You can see the discourse that took place in this post of the extended Lvov pocket. https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=390004

[56ajax]

I am playing 2 games as Sov, both within about 4 weeks of each. Getting beaten in one and doing ok in the other. Have/had about the same number of Mech/Tank in both come winter. It is not the number of divisions that is important but the %TOE, exerience and morale of those units. So as the Axis player hit them hard and often.

And just when you are in the middle of your winter counter offensive the game turns all your tank divs into brigades. Just anothe r dirty rotten Axis trick.