The World at War ELO Tournament

[Umeu]

What is funny about my game with Elvis. While I have not played for 2 years I did not know about the strategy of allies attack against Italy NA from Tunis in early game (now I have read AAR and know that it is not first time used). So I had no plans or ideas to counter it. Just moved bombers and paratroops to Sicily planing to land on NA territory controlled by Italy from the game start. But after preparation of paratroops I just realized that this territory is out of my range. Just having no other options with 3 bombers (2 is enough) and para in Sicily i just attacked Vichy Tunis. For some reason it affected only USSR mobilization on 3%. Tunis port is under total control of German aviation and there is no problem to land germans through it. Thus, I guess such move totally counter the strategy of Allies attack from Tunis. Just lost few month nothing else.

Actually, it's only partially true. Germany can always take Tunis with paratroopers, but that's it. Unless you sneak in amphibious units, Axis can't land in Tunis port because the strat bomber can just control supply infinitely. That's actually one of the main reasons for doing this attack.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

I was outta control. Landing in Syracuse, first, not Tripoli. I was completely outta control. There was no reason to take Bengazi, should have left, with the raid, been content on small drop to Italian morale. I surrounded Tobruk with a bunch of garbage units from India, South Africa, wherever, that were easily mopped up by Panzers. No reason to take all that risk in late 1940.

By the way, the game DmitryN and I, was played in record time. We both must have been on vacation, because we played to the end of 1942, in less that 2+ days real-time. Lol.

@Umeu --- Dude, you've taken the game to a different level. If you teach everyone your new openings and strategies, gonna change everything. Almost to a point of playing Chess. There are plenty of good player, but your study is insane on the combinations. Your Polish opening is crazy good. Now you've taken that to the 3rd in the Low Countries. There's no stopping it. Even if you get a couple "bad rolls", doesn't matter, in Poland. So it's two turns, so be it. The opening on Low Countries is sick. France could be gone at Christmas if you get weather.

[DmitryN]

ofc it defenetly could not be 2 days. it was about 40 turns so not less than 4-5 days I guess.Anyway agree it was fast. it totally disorganized my normal day order:)

[Umeu]

@Umeu --- Dude, you've taken the game to a different level. If you teach everyone your new openings and strategies, gonna change everything. Almost to a point of playing Chess. There are plenty of good player, but your study is insane on the combinations. Your Polish opening is crazy good. Now you've taken that to the 3rd in the Low Countries. There's no stopping it. Even if you get a couple "bad rolls", doesn't matter, in Poland. So it's two turns, so be it. The opening on Low Countries is sick. France could be gone at Christmas if you get weather.

Thanks! But I think once people are no longer caught off guard by it, it will not make such a big difference anymore, it’s just a slightly more optimized version of the normal early attack on France. Fall of France always roughly takes the same amount of turns at minimum in my experience, the early attack is just to make sure it doesn’t take longer. Fastest surrender I have achieved with it is February, but Dmitry gave up the defense of Paris, had he not done that, I would have needed 2 more turns. (Just quickly tried it out in hotseat mode again, and France didn’t fall until May, though Paris was taken in April, the first turn without snow in 1940. If weather is a bit better, Paris can maybe be taken in March and surrender in April. The answer to almost all Allied troubles are simply… defend further back )

You are right that the rolls you get are somewhat irrelevant, at least on your infantry. If you get a lucky roll on your med bomber, you can potentially move both tac bombers to France on t1. Moving 2 tanks should always be possible. Vs Dmitry I took poland on t2, vs you on t1. But because I already always move the units I need for Belgium and France there on t1, and operate 2 armies on t3, it doesn’t matter which turn Poland falls.

I wrote a guide in the war room (with a video of one of the variations to take warsaw t1 without tanks, but you can do t2 also like you said). You should give it a go! Maybe you find a way to improve it, like Petedalby did. I got most ideas from other players too, in the end.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

@Umeu --- I will give you credit, call it the Umeu Opening. Like a chess move, there's nothing better. Really not a reason to do anything but that. I'm not gonna play against that. There's nothing France can do, except die. x2 Panzers, already Northwest Belgium. All the space, is opened up. It's not even about a drive to Paris, the British are pressed on Dunkirk and entire Northern corridor.

Need another House Rule or bid system. Might as well change the scenario.

[Umeu]

@Umeu --- I will give you credit, call it the Umeu Opening. Like a chess move, there's nothing better. Really not a reason to do anything but that. I'm not gonna play against that. There's nothing France can do, except die. x2 Panzers, already Northwest Belgium. All the space, is opened up. It's not even about a drive to Paris, the British are pressed on Dunkirk and entire Northern corridor.

Need another House Rule or bid system. Might as well change the scenario.

It's somewhat true, but in general, France cannot do anything but die. The question is just how much can they slow down their demise? Even vs an axis player that's (a lot) worse than the allied player, usually the allied player can not prevent the fall of France.

But beyond that, the main thing France needs to do is to not defend on the Belgian border. If they defend on the Marne, they hold until April at least. I've tested it many times. If there's anything I have learned from playing strategy games for years, it's that there's always a counter to the counter to the counter. And if there isn't, you're not playing a game, just a simulation. The Brits should be fully dug in on or near their spawns, though the BEF should go behind the Marne, in front of Paris, it'll likely fall. France also should rotate their armies out of the Maginot asap, they're useless there, and the corps have one more movement point, which is important to ensure a swift retreat when the moment inevitably comes.

[DavidDailey]

If the French send their Syrian and one Algerian corp, the Rhone river corps and abandon the Maginot Line and move the corps around Paris ( the idea being to force the Germans to destroy every French corps and armies before Paris falls) and use British North African units to cover Algeria and the Rhone river valley and use British garrison units also, surely the French can hang on at least to early summer. Do the Italians come in really early if the Germans have made an early penetration into France? If not, more units can be stuffed in front of Paris. Can this delay things?

[Umeu]

If the French send their Syrian and one Algerian corp, the Rhone river corps and abandon the Maginot Line and move the corps around Paris ( the idea being to force the Germans to destroy every French corps and armies before Paris falls) and use British North African units to cover Algeria and the Rhone river valley and use British garrison units also, surely the French can hang on at least to early summer. Do the Italians come in really early if the Germans have made an early penetration into France? If not, more units can be stuffed in front of Paris. Can this delay things?

Not sure what you mean by early summer, but yes, with favorable winter turns, the Allies can hold out till April or May, which is early summer I guess? I do always bring the Syrian and Algerian corps, and the Malta AA, but I don’t usually bring the Egyptians, which is risky now that the rest of the task force there spawns later.

As with anything in WaW, there is a +1/-1 variance. I’d say April has been standard for me, with March and May being possible but probable outliers. February has happened two times but the allies chose to evacuate the British early which greatly sped up the fall of Paris.

[DavidDailey]

Here is the thing. Every turn the Allies can hold out in France helps Russia. If France falls in April, even May the Germans have too much time to subdue Malta, invade North Africa, invade Greece, crush Yugoslavia, get Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria as allies and build every panzer army in the force pool. Russia has no chance. The Allies must hold France into June and preferably July to give the Reds some breathing room.

[James Taylor]

Just play the 42 High Tide scenario; no gambits, little diplomacy, no early surrenders, a real slugfest from the first turn!

[Umeu]

Here is the thing. Every turn the Allies can hold out in France helps Russia. If France falls in April, even May the Germans have too much time to subdue Malta, invade North Africa, invade Greece, crush Yugoslavia, get Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria as allies and build every panzer army in the force pool. Russia has no chance. The Allies must hold France into June and preferably July to give the Reds some breathing room.

You're definitely right that delaying the fall of France helps out Russia but I don't think their survival depends on it. They should be fine holding out on their own I believe. What's most important in France I think, is that UK doesn't take a beating in France, or if they do, that they indeed cause signifcant delays.

However, there are also small but not insignificant downsides to a delayed fall of France. It means US doesn't get a mobilization increase, and if it takes too long, then the option for bombers means choosing between US or France, rather than US or UK. UK is imo the best choice for that event.