Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units?

[Brady]

I was reading in a Book I hvae on the Betty, that many of the Okaha atacks were conducted at night, and that the Bettys were equiped with surface search radar, is this represented in WiTP...can we actualy see some more night atacks, unlike UV whear they are all but impossable to triger for the Japanese?

Also does WiTP alow for the P1Y units to upgrade to being able to use these, if iI remember corectly a P1Y unit was working up to use the Baka's when the war ended.

Also does WiTP alow for an upgrade path for the Okha's, to the later models if the war goes long...this would include shore launced varients...

[Damien Thorn]

I wonder what kind of rules will be in effect for the Oka-G4m2 combo. I'm sure the G4Ms won't have to face flak, as they launched from well out of range.
Will the Oka face flak? Do current flak rules account for airplane speed? They probably should. It is easier to shoot down a slower plane than a faster one.
Will CAP be able to attack Okas? Probably, but I'd imagine they would only get one "round" of Air-to-Air combat since no other plane could catch the rocket after if went by.

I'd also like to know if there are any special rules for Kamikazes. How much extra damage does the kamikaze do when it hits? I guess it will probably be based on toughness of the plance, since that seems to be an indicator of size and mass.

[Brady]

The Okaha should be all but imune from interception, and almost imune to ack as well, though their is the off chance that it could be hit by Flack, High spead and very slow spead made ACK have a dificult time tracking a target, also the Ohaka is extreamly small, though to track and hit.

Kamakisies are realy just a deleavery means the real damage is caused bu the bomb(s) they carry, most Kamakisies carried very Lagre bombload's, I read recently that a Ki-67 convershion to kamakisie could pack about 3 tons of explosives!

[BB57]

Did the Ohka have a short range? I believe the Bettys carrying them were shot down in droves.

[Brady]

The first Ohka's the Model 11, had to be launched about 20 miles from the target, the Bettys carrying them on some of the Mishions were intercepted before launch and shot down, Howeaver Several suxcessfull Baka mishios were flow and they did sink ships and damage others, Also many Baka mishions were flow at night.



Powerplant:
(Model 11 and 21) Three Type 4 Model 1 Mark 20 solid-fuel rockets with a total thrust of 1,764 lbs.

(Model 22) One 551-lb.-thrust Tsu-11 turbojet, with a Hitachi 100-hp four-cylinder inline auxiliary engine as a gas generator.

(Models 33, 43A, 43B, and 53) One 1,047-lb.-thrust Ne-20 axial-flow turbojet.

(Model 43 K-1 Kai) One 573-lb.-thrust Type 4 Model 1 Mark 20 solid-fuel rocket.


Armament:
Warhead in the nose, as follows -

Ohka 11: 2,646 lb.;
Ohka 22: 1,323 lb.;
Ohka 33 and Ohka 43: 1,764 lb.


Dimensions, weights, and performance:
(Ohka Model 11)
Wingspan, 16 ft. 9 9/16 in.;
length, 19 ft. 10 13/16 in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 21/32 in.;
wing area, 64.583 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 970 lb.;
loaded weight, 4,178 lb.;
wing loading, 73.1 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 403 mph at 11,485 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, 576 mph.;
range, 23 statute miles.

(Ohka Model 22; all performance figures estimated)
Wingspan, 13 ft. 6 7/32 in.;
length, 22 ft. 6 7/8 in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 9/32 in.;
wing area, 43.055 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 1,202 lb.;
loaded weight, 3,197 lb.;
wing loading, 74.3 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 276 mph at 13,125 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, N/A;
range, 81 statute miles.

(Ohka Model 43B; all performance figures estimated)
Wingspan, 29 ft. 6 11/32 in.;
length, 26 ft. 9 ¼ in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 9/32 in.;
wing area, 139.930 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 2,535 lb.;
loaded weight, 5,004 lb.;
wing loading, 35.8 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 345 mph at 13,125 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, N/A;
range, 173 statute miles.


Does WiTP alow for the upgraded types to become available?


See this sight for a good read coving this weapon:


http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/mxy7/

[Rendova]

Seems to me they should be able to be shot down to a degree, A VT fused shell would get near and Of course I would imagine they would be harder to hit then a val

[jeffs]

LargeSlowTarget brings up an excellent point
Kamikaze pilots didn't volunteer but were ordered to fly one-way missions.

I had a Japanese language professor about a decade ago. A very nice, quiet elderly man. One of the other teachers mentioned that older teacher was very quiet probably because he had been one of the Kamikaze trainees (fortunately, the war ended before his mission was scheduled). The older teacher was a graduate student of German culture and at his university, any student whose was doing foreign studies (language, culture) was ordered into the Kamikaze unit. So for the leaders of Japan, it served an additional purpose of ridding Japan of any foreign taint (any yes, ironic comments can made that he was a student of German, their allies)..

[Brady]

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

Feared? Perhaps. Fearsome? Maybe not. It is interesting to consider the fact that so few ships were actually damaged by them. I think they did actually sink a DD or so? No hits on CVs though, IIRC. BBs, CAs, CLs, possibly a hit or two here, Brady I'm sure you can tell us.... One must always temper one's discussion of the theoretical capabilities of particular weapons systems with an examination of actual performance. These were truly spectacular weapons; at the same time they seem to have been particularly ineffective.....what would account for this discrepancy?

[jnier]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

Feared? Perhaps. Fearsome? Maybe not. It is interesting to consider the fact that so few ships were actually damaged by them. I think they did actually sink a DD or so? No hits on CVs though, IIRC. BBs, CAs, CLs, possibly a hit or two here, Brady I'm sure you can tell us.... One must always temper one's discussion of the theoretical capabilities of particular weapons systems with an examination of actual performance. These were truly spectacular weapons; at the same time they seem to have been particularly ineffective.....what would account for this discrepancy?

The early models were ineffecitve because of their range (23 miles) - as a previous poster mentioned, the mother Betty was usually shot down before they could launch the Okha. I have no idea how many Okha's were shot down after launch - I would guess not that many.

As has been pointed out, the later model greatly increased their range (173 miles), so if a Japanese player could produce the later model in greater numbers (for example - if the game goes longer than August '45), then perhaps they could have done more damage.

The Ohka certainly wasn't a war winning weapon, but the later versions may have been more effective.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

I don't believe that tracking would actually be an issue for AAA vs an Ohka attack. The reason for this is that, while the Ohka is indeed moving at high speed, there is little motion relative to its intended target and nearby screening vessels. As the Ohka is moving towards its target, the range to it is changing rapidly, but the angle of its approach does not. Even for screening vessels (not targets themselves), relative motion would be quite small until the Ohka begins to near its target. Certainly for a considerable distance beginning at the outer edges of 5" range there would be very little relative motion for most of the screening vessels that would likely be engaging it.

It is in fact a more difficult target for other reasons though. It is smaller, and its higher speed means that since it is within range of the AAA for less time, it would also receive less fire in total than an ordinary kamikaze.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: jnier

The early models were ineffecitve because of their range (23 miles) - as a previous poster mentioned, the mother Betty was usually shot down before they could launch the Okha. I have no idea how many Okha's were shot down after launch - I would guess not that many.

As has been pointed out, the later model greatly increased their range (173 miles), so if a Japanese player could produce the later model in greater numbers (for example - if the game goes longer than August '45), then perhaps they could have done more damage.

The Ohka certainly wasn't a war winning weapon, but the later versions may have been more effective.

I don't think that longer range by itself would necessarily make them more effective. True, they would be more likely to be launched before their carrier could be engaged, but other problems remain.

The main problem I see with any over the horizon launch is that of finding a target. I can imagine navigating from the cockpit of an Ohka would be problematic. I can imagine that just flying the damn thing would require both hands and at least 90% of the pilot's attention. I could be wrong.... The thing is that we are still talking about dead-reckoning. Finding the target TF, then finding a suitable target within the TF would certainly not be easy in any case. Launching from far OTH would make it more difficult by an order of magnitude.

These problems can be compensated for by launching closer to the target. But the closer you launch, the less you make use of the theoretical advantage of the longer range....again, the fallacy of confusing a weapon's impressive characteristics with the likelihood that they will significantly improve its effectiveness....

[Mr.Frag]

They were ineffective because they were very difficult to stear, not because they were shot down. Mind you that might actually contribute to why they were tough to shoot down too [;)]

[Brady]

p.94

"On 21st March K711 suxcedded in launching 18 aircraft on the first Jinrai sortie, with 15 of the rikko carrying Ohka to give the weapon it's combat debut"

The were all shot down before reaching the launch point. K711 had been atack at ait's base by Carrier launched planes before this sorti and had taken considerable losses in Rikko before this soritie occured as a result of both these actions this unit was disbanded. Their was howeaver another unit that had been trained and equiped to use the Ohka at this time ready to go...

"Leaving K708 to take over as the operational hikotai. The later unit would subsequently undertake a number of small scale sorties, primarly at night, priour to the wars end."

Suporting these Night operations were:

"Also Flying from Kyusho was K704, which was controled by 706 Ku, while 801 Kokutai operated reconnaissance Hikotai 703. Formerly K703, the later unit had been redesignated on 15th March 1945. T707 and 709 were also assigned to 801 Ku, and they preformed mainly night patroles and mine laying operations. From Taiwan, K702 under 765 Ku control, flew small number of mishions, as did a provishional unit Know as Atack (special) Hikotai 701. Again part of 765 Ku, 701 was equiped with Type 1 aircraft..."

"K708 flew it's next Jinrai sorti on the afternoon of 12 Aprial with 8 rikko, which suxcedded in launching six Ohka. One of them sank the destroyer USS Mannert L Abele in the only confirmed Ohka sinking of the war...."

After this sortie two more were made in daylight both were intercepted two early to launch, after this the unit switched back to Night atacks , Ocashionaly some daylight sorties were undertaken, but right up to the end of the war Ohka sorties were the last being flow on the 14th of Augast 1945.

Several ships were damaged By Ohkas including the BB West Virginia.

Given that these did manage to hit their targets, both in daylight and at night, and considering the small number actualy launched, and that nowhear have i sean a referance for one shot down..after Launch, I should think they worked well enough, the main problem being the deleavery means... this would of been rectified to a degree in later models, which were to be carried by P1Y's with about double the range, and even greater as evidanced by the list of model types above, their was even to be a shore launched vershion and a sub launced vershion.


Sources: Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific war by Francillon, and Mitsubishi Type 1 Rikko "Betty" units of WW2 by Osamu Tagaya.

[pertsajakilu]

What we are missing here is Japanese Anti-Panzer Boot ( APB ) which was common boot used by soldiers, but it's head was replaced with at-gun grenade. How it works is simple. A grunt simply kicks unware tank with his APB and voila. No more effective tank. Is this APB included in WITP?[:'(]

Pertsajakilu

[mogami]

Hi Brady do you want the desease infected rice and fleas that were air dropped over China as well?

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi Brady do you want the desease infected rice and fleas that were air dropped over China as well?

Biological weapons might be nice since they are including nukes. The plan was, after testing in China, to release the weapon over the USA from high-altitude balloons. I'm not sure what sort of game impact it would have. Maybe points for civilian casualties (as discusting as that thought is in real-life).

[mdiehl]

The Okaha should be all but imune from interception, and almost imune to ack as well, though their is the off chance that it could be hit by Flack, High spead and very slow spead made ACK have a dificult time tracking a target, also the Ohaka is extreamly small, though to track and hit.

LOL! I agree, without Brady this place might become dull.

The Ohka should also be all but immune to the prospect of striking a target, since it was virtually uncontrollable and could not be counted on to hit an entire harbor, much less a ship anchored IN a harbor.

Biological weapons might be nice since they are including nukes.

That'd sure make the end-game interesting.

Computer: "Japan offers to surrender, you may: 1. Continue the bombing. 2. Continue the bombing adding nukes as they become available. 3. Continue the bombing adding nerve gas and nukes as they become available."

[Player clicks on 3.]

Computer: "Excellent choice. Japan should be ready for rehabitation in about 200 years. Would you prefer to: 1. Colonize? 2. Establish a large game preserve?"

[Player clicks on 2.]

Computer: "Excellent choice. To continue this game, install the accompanying "Dangerous Game Animals" program and select from the following weapons manufacturers. 1. Weatherby. 2. Remington. 3. Savage Arms. 4. Sturm-Ruger. 5. Browning. 6. Winchester. 7. Mannlicher-Schoenauer. 8...."

etc.

[mogami]

Hi, All he sees is that they sank a DD and damaged the West Virginia.
Poor Japan. He would build 20,000 of these things and be happy to hit a troop ship. Weapons of desperation only point the need for an auto victory to end the game when it becomes pointless.

[Mr.Frag]

Hi, All he sees is that they sank a DD and damaged the West Virginia.
Poor Japan. He would build 20,000 of these things and be happy to hit a troop ship. Weapons of desperation only point the need for an auto victory to end the game when it becomes pointless.

Agreed, but it seems we are in the minority here, everyone else seems to want to play "Terminator IV: WitP"

I guess once they play the Mariana's scenerio once as Japan, they will learn from their mistakes and adjust their ways.