Spotting Test; funny results

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:43 pm

I've been puzzling how to solve the tactical problem of having opposing units hit me with first round accuracy >50% at ranges farther than they can be seen. I have not whinned about this as I think its an accurate issue of trying to spot enemy units in real life (been there, done that).

However I began to get suspicious so I ran a test. I set all units to 70 exp to eleminate the varying spotting abilities at varying experience levels. I set visibility to 35 and used a blank, flat map.

Germans had infantry, PZIII (size 3), 88mm Flak (size 3) and Sdkfz-6 (size 3).

Soviets had infantry, T34 (size 3)

The Soviets spotted ALL German vehicular units:
88mm 25/28 hexes
PZIII 26/29 hexes
SdKfz 32/32/33/33/33/35 hexes

NONE of the Soviet vehicular units were spotted:
T34 26/28/30 hexes

This means that Soviet units with exp 70 spotted German size 3 units out to 35 hexes while German exp 70 units could not spot Soviet size 3 units at 26 hexes!

Does anyone else have experience with inconsistent spotting results or can someone explain this?

BA Evans · Post by **BA Evans** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:11 pm

Did everyone have the same stance? Advance/Defend...

Was this a meeting engagement or was one side Assaulting/Defending?

Was the Op-fire range ('L' key) the same for both sides?

These are the only factors that might affect things. If both sides had the same settings, I would expect to see similar spotting ranges. Looks like you may have found an inconsistancy in the spotting routine. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

BA Evans

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:20 pm

Originally posted by BA Evans:
Did everyone have the same stance? Advance/Defend...

Same stance, advance

Was this a meeting engagement or was one side Assaulting/Defending?

Meeting

Was the Op-fire range ('L' key) the same for both sides?

Y key? I am not familar with the L key but I played the human on both sides and there was no firing involved.

These are the only factors that might affect things. If both sides had the same settings, I would expect to see similar spotting ranges. Looks like you may have found an inconsistancy in the spotting routine. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

BA Evans

Good questions. To expand I created this as a battle, saved it as a scenario, edited it in the scenario editor then replayed it several times.

11Bravo · Post by **11Bravo** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:07 pm

In your experiment, did you only count spotting from stationary infantry units? Or did your infantry move, or did you also spot from moving or stationary vehicles?

I'm not an expert on the SPWAW spotting rules, but it seems that spotting enemy vehicles while stationary might be different than spotting them as moving infantry, moving vehicles, etc.

Nice experiment...

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: 11Bravo ]</p>

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:28 pm

Send me a save if you would, though frankly the spotting routines are some of the most arcane things in the game <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:32 pm

Originally posted by 11Bravo:
In your experiment, did you only count spotting from stationary infantry units? Or did your infantry move, or did you also spot from moving or stationary vehicles?

I'm not an expert on the SPWAW spotting rules, but it seems that spotting enemy vehicles while stationary might be different than spotting them as moving infantry, moving vehicles, etc.

Nice experiment...

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: 11Bravo ]

No one moved to get the results above. I finally did move the Soviet units to get them to be spotted so that I could confirm the distance without manually counting hexes. Once I moved each Soviet vehicle one hex, it became spotted.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:43 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Send me a save if you would, though frankly the spotting routines are some of the most arcane things in the game <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Ack! I overwrote it to make a new scenario to test the new OOB. (low number scenario slots are golden*) I will try and recreate it.

*Its sometimes difficult trying to find a scenario or save and having to scroll down through hundreds of slots. Perhaps in upcoming games a save in directory feature (similar to Starcraft) can be used. I could select a directory so I can have multiple directories for real, test, etc. cases.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:58 pm

Perhaps troops that are considerably higher than their national ratings are given more aptitude at the same level than the Germans would (which if the theory holds would make the difference between regular SS and Soviet even more profound when the Soviet were at their level of training). I must say that I've had a number of times where I couldn't believe how far out the Poles were spotting my 2-man scout teams which were advancing merely one hex per turn and having played those first Gerry vs. Pole battles so much you would think that I wouldn't had noticed a difference. Unfortunately I can't tell you which version I started sensing that the scouts were less stealthy for Germany.

FrankyVas · Post by **FrankyVas** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:25 pm

I have seen this in the current battle I'm playing. It's an assault and there's som SU-122 entrenched in front of me. They are about 10 hexes away, they fire 2-3 times, no spotting. I have infantry, tanks and guns with line of sight to them. I have managed to spot them for a turn, but then they disapear. They have no trouble spotting my infantry, tanks, halftracks, 105mmRR, MG42 teams.... It's just frustrating to be shooting at them one turn, and then the next they are gone, and they haven't moved either.

Frank V.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:29 pm

Originally posted by FrankyVas:
... I have managed to spot them for a turn, but then they disapear. They have no trouble spotting my infantry, tanks, halftracks, 105mmRR, MG42 teams.... It's just frustrating to be shooting at them one turn, and then the next they are gone, and they haven't moved either.

Frank V.

If you have a unit that has fired at them, set its range real low with the "Y" key so that it does not target another unit. On the next turn, although the target is invisible, your firing unit will retain its target and you can fire at it with the "F" key. Note that if you change targets with the "T" key, you will not be able to find the original invisible unit.

Happy targeting to you.

Guardian · Post by **Guardian** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 12:07 pm

I was playing MC couple weeks ago with WaW 5.1 and I was wondering how big those 2 pounder AT-guns are. I was literally on top of them (well.. in the same hex anyway) with my panzer and had several other panzers within 5 hexes then gun shot couple rounds (got lucky and wasnt killed) but I still hadnt spotted that gun. Those guns are plain murder!

Other odd thing happend in another scenario (sorry but this is off-topic, dont feel like making new thread for this). My planes(4) dropped some troops to the very end of the map. 1 overshoot, didnt drop a thing ('it happens), 1 dropped 3 units, 1 dropped 2 units (MG and AT-rifle if I remeber correctly) and 1 dropped 1 unit (either MG or AT-rifle). Nothing out of ordinary so far. But couple rounds later I was very amazed when my AT-rifle was fired upon and full squad UNLOADED from it(!!!) and closer observation reveal that another AT-rifle(Or MG) had another squad and MG(Or AT-rifle) as passengers! Man those troops have strong back <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

BA Evans · Post by **BA Evans** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:44 pm

Opps, I meant the 'Y' key. Thanks for the correction.

I have noticed that when my Elite infiltrators appear near large numbers of enemy, they stay hidden much better if their 'Range' is reduced to 1 or 0. When the range is higher, they seem to get spotted easier, even when I answer 'No' to all op-fire requests. I think that is because my guys are popping their heads up and looking for oportunities to shoot.

BA Evans

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:54 pm

Originally posted by BA Evans:
Opps, I meant the 'Y' key. Thanks for the correction.

I have noticed that when my Elite infiltrators appear near large numbers of enemy, they stay hidden much better if their 'Range' is reduced to 1 or 0. When the range is higher, they seem to get spotted easier, even when I answer 'No' to all op-fire requests. I think that is because my guys are popping their heads up and looking for oportunities to shoot.

BA Evans

If that's correct, it's a real cool feature. Gotta try it next time.. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 10:11 pm

I ran an second test and again got inconsistent results. Germans and Soviets all units set to exp 70, advance stance. Soviets this time spotted two hexes further than the Germans (26 vs 28 IIRC). This is not as extreame as the last test. I sent it to Paul to look at.

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 1:22 pm

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
I ran an second test and again got inconsistent results. Germans and Soviets all units set to exp 70, advance stance.

do you mean you set the exp. setting in the preferences to '70', or do you edit every unit seperatly to set experience, morale, rally and command value to '70' ??

A.

Eduardo · Post by **Eduardo** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:50 am

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> The invisible 2prd's! I have noticed the same in the mega campaing. Middle of the desert, very flat, infantry and tanks with line of sight. This 2pdr shot several times I none could find it. Even when infantry was at the same hex.

I had the same experience as with the GE ATR carrying a whole squad during an air drop at Tobruk.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 5:34 pm

Originally posted by Arralen:

do you mean you set the exp. setting in the preferences to '70', or do you edit every unit seperatly to set experience, morale, rally and command value to '70' ??

A.

I went into the scenario editor and set the exp of each unit to 70. I did not modify other settings as I do not think that they effect spotting.