Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself?

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

ORIGINAL: Didz
Interesting, I assumed you were american from your attitude.

quote]

LOL..thats fuuuuunnnnnyyy.

Sorry Didz,Uhmm,Im the angry yank!

Actually, thats not what I was referring too.

It was the classic US attitude of, if it isn't this side of the pond it doesn't exist and its not worth considering, which I was picking up on.

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
Honestly,In my experience if you walk into a hobby shop or gamestore and ask for role playing games chances are they will point you in the direction of D&D and games similar to it like the G.U.R.P.S. stuff.

Oh! I don't dispute that. The problem is that Fantasy Roleplaying dominates the roleplaying market just as boardgaming dominates the computer wargame market.

However, its wrong to assume that just because this is the current situation that it was always like that or that it needs to remain that way. Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training, but it doesn't involve Dragons, I've designed several roleplaying games for management training. And some of the very early commerical roleplaying games in the UK were actually based upon the Wild West, thats before Dungeon's and Dragons swept the market.

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
And also I have seen a single miniature being used to represent a squad,platoon,regiment or whatever the same with tanks and the like.

Yes. I was also quite keen not to get locked into the wargaming with miniatures debate because whilst Miniatures Gamers use miniatures to represent units in tactical play that's only the front end of their hobby and they do spend as long, if not longer, running map based systems to link these tactical games into a complete campaign or war.

Therefore, it isn't and never has been about how many figures you can fit on a 4x8 table.

In fact I was thinking about the basic disfference between boardgaming and tabletop wargaming in the car yesterday as I was driving to a business meeting and concluded that the underlying difference between the two comes down to emotion.

What I get from wargaming with miniatures on a tabletop is a much more emotional reaction to the events in the game.

Whereas boardgaming is a far more celebral exercise where one is calculating risks and options in a rather detached way, wargaming with miniatures really drags the gamer down into the action. And there's much more adrenaline flowing in a tabletop game, its almost like a sport in some senses. You get great upsurges of emotion, cheering, anger, frustration. I've witnessed players reduced to tears, physical violence and one guy who got so upset he dashed a poorly performing unit off the table onto the floor and stomped it into oblivion.

Whilst I'm not advocating that sort of behaviour, the emotional involvement in the game is important and we have lost that aspect in many of the current computer wargames on the market. It's difficult to get emotionally attached to a bunch of cardboard counters.

But there is no reason why with the higher performance of PC's these days that computer wargames could not provide that sort of wargaming expereince. It just needs a gaming company with the vision and skill to draw the various aspects of game design together into an integrated package.

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
Maybe the term 'roleplay' mite be have a bit of different meaning from North America to the UK.

To be honest, it wasn't the misunderstanding of the term 'Roleplay' which confused me, as you say most people instantly assume Dungeons & Dragons when they hear that term. It was 'Rolegame' that threw me. I've been an active member of the WFRP List and Critical Hit forums for several years and never heard that term before even from the American members.

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
The first D&D game I saw in the late 70's I think it was,I cant recall ever seeing anyone playing with miniatures,they were mentioned.But I never saw them in use in the game until the 80's I think.I know they have been used for a long time before that but as far as D&D goes,I have no clue if they were used from the first inkling of the game or until later in the series.

It wasn't a very successful concept. Although we are currently debating the role of miniatures in WFRP on the Critical Hit forum.

I think TSR came up with the idea when they realised that their original selling gimmink 'All you need is this rulebook, a pen and paper, to play' actually mean't they didn't get anymore money from the purchaser.

The miniatures certainly came along later, along with the boardgame version and all the extra books. The Fantasy Wargaming hobby appeared seperately probably triggerred by the first animated version of Lord of the Rings and I don't think TSR ever got into that market. Most of the figures seemed to come from the same companies that produced the historical models at first.

Fantasy Wargaming completely decimated Historical Wargaming with miniatures. Clubs just couldn't compete for young members with a game that allowed magical wizards and large cool monsters. It also killed the hobbies attempt to be accepted as a serious pasttime by TV companies and threw the hobby back into the 'playing with toy soldiers' defence.

In fact wargaming has only recently made a bit of a come back on TV with the recent 'Time Commanders' series using Creative Assmeblies Roman Totalwar game.

It wasn't until GW appeared on the scene that Fantasy Gaming became accepted as a mainstream hobby and by then the vast majority of Historical Wargame Clubs including my own had folded and they have never recovered. There are a few large ones like Newbury still in existence but nothing like the numbers that there used to be.

Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hopng that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game. Looking forward to Roman Totalwar in the meantime.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Hmm, well I am trying my best to converse here, but I think most of you guys will agree, Didz is about as receptive to "wargaming" as it matters here in North America, which by the way is where a lot of wargaming is sold, as I am receptive to RTS gaming

I don't think the world revolves around North American style anything.
But Didz could be said to think in exactly those terms with respects to UK style interpretations.

Don't take this personal (to much Didz), but your Freelance style of management consulting won't fly very far outside of the UK. Your knowledge of dealign with international concerns, is lacking.
I say this, because while I only claim to be a cabinetmaker, you claim to be a consultant. But I would expect a consultant to be very conversant with what makes more than just his neck of the woods tick.

You don't seem to really know all that much about anything outside of the UK.

I am familiar with muds that are conducted by PBEM.
They were largely wiped out when games like Everquest made them a painful waste of time and effort. Have you at least heard of EQ?

I am just a rolegamer. ie I play rolegames ie I get together with buddies to play rolegames ie that means being all in the same room to play a rolegame ie you have to be there ie no I don't mean playing it on a computer in any capacity ie not as a solo game, or online or in slow motion through a distant moderator.

I thought I recognised Dungeon Master, was just not sure. To me rolegaming is about interacting with real people. It's why I don't play any on the computer, regardless of how good.
To me rolegaming is about the laughs and the interaction with real people.
It is also why I remain a board gamer whether computers become handy or not.

No interface, no program, no graphics will ever support the same level of satisfaction of actually being with friends.
That much I guess you understand, as you get that with a table full of miniatures action.
Although in my case, I would rather build a nice train layout if I was going to go gungho on a table with elaborate scenery.

"Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hopng that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game."

Don't hold your breath. The world cares even less for miniatures than it does for board games. And they don't seem to want to computerise your vision any more than mine.
You are just as much a niche interest as I am.

"Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training."

Actually, the Japanese are fond of using Sun Tsu and the Art of War for their business.

I would be inclined to think both had merits.

But as a consultant, I can't seem to get past the humour in how you can't seem to identify how your use of the word "roleplay", has absolutely nothing to do with wargaming as just about the entirety of an entire continent is concerned.
No the North American way is neither the best nor the only. But, it is odd how you are so out of your depth being as you are employed as a consultant.

[DerekP]

Go to google.com

roleplaying 4.26 million hits
rolegaming 959

Les - admit it - you just used the wrong word!

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Hmm well I will admit, my word processor gets in a snit when I type rolegame instead of role game.

Or roleplaying, instead of role playing.

But I just googled your two words, and yes I got the same sort of numbers you did.

And also noticed, it was basically all Dungeons and Dragons sorts of references when it was not talking about hiring techniques or psychology.

There was no mention of gaming out roles in miniature though

Didz might come from where english as a language is assumed to have originated, but he seems unwilling to accept, that not everyone sees his usage as the prevailing application hehe.

[Reiryc]

It was the classic US attitude of, if it isn't this side of the pond it doesn't exist and its not worth considering, which I was picking up on.

The classic US attitude?

What kind of biggoted crap is that? [8|]

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

What kind of biggoted crap is that?

I think it might be the sort that occurs when you were not lucky to be born American

Hey, Americans didn't invent biggoted crap

We all have the potential hehe

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Hmm, well I am trying my best to converse here, but I think most of you guys will agree, Didz is about as receptive to "wargaming" as it matters here in North America, which by the way is where a lot of wargaming is sold, as I am receptive to RTS gaming

And you seem about as receptive to the concept that "wargaming" can be conducted without hexgrids and cardboard counters as I am to the concept that pants can be worn outside your trousers.[;)]

I agree on the RTS point though. Real-Time is definitely not the way to go with Computer Wargames. The list of computer wargames ruined by this real-time fetish computer designers have is growing longer week by week.

The saddest for me was definitely 1813 which could have been brilliant but more recently 'Lord of the Realms III, which had so much promise in its earlier versions was flushed down the toilet by the real time fetish party.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
You don't seem to really know all that much about anything outside of the UK.

That’s Ok! You don't seem to know much outside 20th Century period boardgames.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
They were largely wiped out when games like Everquest made them a painful waste of time and effort. Have you at least heard of EQ?

Yep! Played it.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I am just a rolegamer. ie I play rolegames ie I get together with buddies to play rolegames ie that means being all in the same room to play a rolegame ie you have to be there ie no I don't mean playing it on a computer in any capacity ie not as a solo game, or online or in slow motion through a distant moderator.

Fair enough. I don't have enough time in the evenings to play WFRP like that and so the PBEM approach works better for me. Much slower than the RT version but has the advantage of more in-depth characterisation and of course a whole world full of players to draw on.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I thought I recognised Dungeon Master, was just not sure. To me rolegaming is about interacting with real people. It's why I don't play any on the computer, regardless of how good.

Actually its Game Master in WFRP, not Dungeon Master (Or is that another North American variation). I agree on the CRPG point, its hard to imagine how any computer AI can produce a challenging role-playing game. I've played a few, everything from Diablo2 to Neverwinter and EQ and they can be fun but a PC just cannot mimic the performance of a good GM/DM or the interaction between real people.

Likewise, I prefer playing wargames with and against other people rather than the PC. Even assuming the AI is capable of providing a challenging game the pitting of your skills against another team of people can't be matched by a computer.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hoping that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game."

Don't hold your breath. The world cares even less for miniatures than it does for board games. And they don't seem to want to computerise your vision any more than mine.

I don't agree. Recent game releases have been very close, in fact all the concepts have already been developed and used in existing games. Its just that no-one has had the vision to put them together in a single package.

My current hopes are with Creative Assembly who seem to be developing things along the right lines. The main shortcoming of their games is that they cannot be played as PBEM's. Which severely limits their appeal from a wargaming perspective.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
You are just as much a niche interest as I am.

I don't think I am in terms of marketing the final product. If Creative Assembly or any other wargame design group do manage to produce a playable game along the lines I describe, I suspect they will find it far easier to market and sell than they currently find computer boardgames.

Most youngsters today take one look at a hexgrid system and reboot MoH or C&C Generals. What the concept I'm proposing does is provide a serious computer wargame in a format which will be exciting enough to attract young people back into the hobby.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training."
Actually, the Japanese are fond of using Sun Tsu and the Art of War for their business.

Not just the Japanese. Sun Tsu is commonly quoted in Management training here in the UK.

Having said that we have a lot of Japanese owned companies here in the UK as the workforce is cheaper here and we have a reputation for innovative design.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
But as a consultant, I can't seem to get past the humour in how you can't seem to identify how your use of the word "roleplay", has absolutely nothing to do with wargaming as just about the entirety of an entire continent is concerned.

Well I guess that’s just something you will have to live with.[8|]

In my experience "Roleplay" has everything to do with "Wargaming". When you place yourself in the role of the commander of an army you are adopting that role. You are seeking to place yourself in a situation where you can appreciate the issues that this commander had to face and to recreate the knowledge and options he had to resolve those issues.

That's the essence of "Roleplay" in its generic context and its also the essence of "wargaming" when apply to a military situation.

The same principles are applied when "RolePlay" is introduced in Management Training and delegates are given the opportunity to handle simulated situations that they could face in the real world as part of their new or potential role.

Fantasy Roleplay uses exactly the same basic concept but obvious the situations and options given to players are much more fantastic.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
No the North American way is neither the best nor the only. But, it is odd how you are so out of your depth being as you are employed as a consultant.

Like I said my clients don't normally have aspirations to mimic North American business methods, so my interest in them is quite limited. Having said that I do keep in touch with the latest trends in US change management techniques because they eventually get repackaged and introduced over here. Often with quite disasterous results.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

well one thing IS clear. Didz, you and me both do not really care much for where wargaming/rolegaming/whatever gaming is or is headed.

There are some good looking changes in our respective preferred areas of interest though.

I am keeping my fingers crossed in any event.

Oh on Dungeon Master, I meant a computer game I have seen in the past by that remark.

Although, in the case of the paper and pencil style, I have seen that each game seeks to market it's own "term" for the guy tasked with "running the game".

D&D called the person DM Dungeon Master. I have seen Game Master, Administrator, and a host of other labels. I prefer to be referred to as "god" when I am running my game
My game of choice is the Alternity design. It began as a scifi design, but I like how it is really not limited by any manner of genre of setting. I also like how I can run the game, and only need to carry around two books and a binder of notes to do so. Man that is suuuuuure a nice change from the glut of books 2nd edition AD&D spawned (I got soooo taken in by that line).

Trust me Didz, if I lived near you, I would likely be one of your hard core miniatures players. I love models, and I like miniatures. But I live in a country that could care less.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
well one thing IS clear. Didz, you and me both do not really care much for where wargaming/rolegaming/whatever gaming is or is headed.

There are some good looking changes in our respective preferred areas of interest though.

I am keeping my fingers crossed in any event.

Same here.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Oh on Dungeon Master, I meant a computer game I have seen in the past by that remark.

Oh! Right sorry misunderstood. Don't think I've heard of Dungeon Master the computer game, I've played Dungeon Keeper and Dungeon Keeper 2 which are quite fun.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
My game of choice is the Alternity design. It began as a scifi design, but I like how it is really not limited by any manner of genre of setting. I also like how I can run the game, and only need to carry around two books and a binder of notes to do so. Man that is suuuuuure a nice change from the glut of books 2nd edition AD&D spawned (I got soooo taken in by that line).

Hmm! haven't heard of that either, clearly we operate in widely different area's of gaming.

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Trust me Didz, if I lived near you, I would likely be one of your hard core miniatures players. I love models, and I like miniatures. But I live in a country that could care less.

You and me both. My miniatures are all packed away in tissue and cardboard in the loft and I doubt I shall be playing with them again. I'm just hoping to get the chance to play a decent computer version before I'm too old the work the keyboard.

Reasonably, hopeful though. Like you I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[ravinhood]

I'm from America and I like minatures, but, I like board wargames and computer wargames also. Sad thing about me, I always had to buy my minatures and get a friend to paint them for me, lol, I can't paint for crapola.

Personally I'd like to see the wargaming market go full swing into both catagories, but, get away from this rediculous (unrealistic time strategy). Many RTS games just play too darn fast for me. I don't care for "click-fests", although if you give me a "point-buy" system of RTS, then that's fine. I just don't want to have to manage a battle or battles at the speed of light and have to do all that micromanaging of resources as well.

The Total War Engine is a great engine for this type of play. Honor & Glory is coming out soon that appears to copy this engine and is in the ANCIENTS period of time. (my favorite). I will be the first inline to get total war games, but, I can only hope someday somehow they make a multiplayer campaign game out of it, instead of solo play with just custom online battles. Those are fun, and when you have 4 vs 4, they are a blast, there's nothing like saving the day or being saved when things go bad for your team. I also think "SPARTAN" is a good model for turn based ancients, but, it doesn't allow you really any tactical input other than setting up and 3 basic attack or defence commands, then you must just sit back and "hope" your strategy was the right one. But, with the computer AI as an opponent, it's not a bad lil game, because you can't "exploit" the computer opponent like you can in the Total War series of games.