From the Movie NETWORK "I'm tired of it and I'm not going to take it anymore" ;)

[ravinhood]

Heh I made a mistake and introduced my son to Ultima II, (he was 2 years old lol), but, grew up and wanted to play, ta dah dah dat dah dahhhhh.. Maters of Magic all the time. lol
But, at least it's some form of military gaming with strategy involved. We discuss and debate the crappy games that tried to copy it or brother/sister it like Heroes of Might and Magic, Age of Wonders and Dominions. Of course Masters of Magic always wins out, it was origional, it wasn't a copy or wannabelike game. So now he's a fantasy strategy/wargaming nut, he's 22 now and plays most of the ones mentioned above and wonders why more games like these aren't out there as much as my "crummy" wargames! LOL

He did follow the RPG trend though, just like I did in his youth he picked up on all the classic RPG games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Dungeon Siege, Diablo 2 (his favorite, don't ask me why, guess he likes action rpgs more). He spent four years playing Everquest and recently finished Gothic I & II.

So he's following his own individual tastes, he's not a wargame fanatic, but, it's good he has his own individuality vs a copycat of his dad, besides while I buy the wargames and he buys the RPG's I get to play the RPG's for FREE (once he's finished with them) lol

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I'm not so subtle

"Kid, you just ain't bright enough to play this here game."

I am not planning on playing fair convincing him to try one (assuming he shows the slightest interest hehe).

Kids usually want to be like their dad, but usually only in ways we find annoying

He sure has my big mouth and smart ass remarks (trouble is the dolt uses them on his mother ).

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Les, I believe Didz thought it would be bad to start doing the things he mentioned in his post not the opposite.

He took what you said then went further trying to imply this would be bad not good for wargames.

He wasnt agreeing with you or myself at all with regards to your post about enhanceing graphis for tabletop style wargame.

I'm confused now[&:]

I thought what I said was that it depends which interest group the game is aimed at.

Boardgamers - don't need or want 3D graphic animations interrupting their gameplay.
Tabletop gamers - need the graphic's but don't want the hexgrids.

Its basically horses for courses.

The two big mistakes in my opinion are:

1. Trying to cater for both in the same game.

2. Trying to do it in real time.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Yeah that's what I thought you said Didz

[EricGuitarJames]

A more accurate label would be ATT (Accelerated Time Tactical) of CFTWNTTT (Click fest Tactical With No Time To Think). There's no element of strategy in any of them.

[:D]

Didz, I've been trying to come up with better than 'RTS' for a while and I like those. Don't necessarily agree but 'CFTWNTTT' is ace. [:D]

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Didz

ORIGINAL: wodin

Les, I believe Didz thought it would be bad to start doing the things he mentioned in his post not the opposite.

He took what you said then went further trying to imply this would be bad not good for wargames.

He wasnt agreeing with you or myself at all with regards to your post about enhanceing graphis for tabletop style wargame.

I'm confused now[&:]

I thought what I said was that it depends which interest group the game is aimed at.

Boardgamers - don't need or want 3D graphic animations interrupting their gameplay.
Tabletop gamers - need the graphic's but don't want the hexgrids.

Its basically horses for courses.

The two big mistakes in my opinion are:

1. Trying to cater for both in the same game.

2. Trying to do it in real time.

Didz I quoted you and Les and said who wouldnt want that?

You replied and said many people here wouldnt want it as they would need to upgrade PC's and went on to explain why.

Now you have split boardgamer sand tabletop gamers I understand. I was talking about tabletop gamers so in effect I was right to say who wouldnt want that.

As for boardgamers graphics like KP and COTD are superb and do it justice.

SO in effect me you and Les all agree.

SO YIPPEE!

[EricGuitarJames]

Gentlemen, may your games all be good ones[8D]

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Didz

Asolutely! Read on.

So some company's marketing hype is considered true now [8|]

Let me try again, WHAT GAME WHICH PEOPLE HERE MIGHT CONSIDER TO BE A REAL WARGAME HAS BEEN 'RUINED' WITH 'FANCY' GRAPHICS?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Let me try further also Dinsdale

Real wargames don't have fancy graphics.

Real wargames are board games, or miniatures collections

Thus, there is no such thing as a "real" wargame with "fancy graphics".

Now I might offer, that some wargames have been possibly over dune with graphics.

In some cases the games components have been overly excessive as well.

For instance, I am on record as bugging the MMP guys at Warfare HQ's ASL forum that they should dump selling ASL with mounted maps, as it massively inflates the product's price to a major disadvantage.

I understand they are thinking of re releasing Up Front without the Programmed Instruction method, for the manual (plain stupid idea in my opinion). But they replaced all the counters with a totally card based approach, which is likely better. Although the cards were likely an expense that wasn't truely required. They should have just allowed the game to re enter circulation. It might be on sale now instead of languishing waaaaaaaaay back on the back burner.

I have seen what the creators did to the Panzer General series, and making it into the 3dish look, was unqualified stupidity. Excellent example of applying new tech just because some jerk thought it was cool. And it wasn't. Likely killed the game too.

So yeah, I will use Panzer General 3d Allied Assault as a game that ruined itself with graphics enhancements no one needed.

[DerekP]

Hmmmmm..... I understand Les's point about some gamers not requiring fancy graphics. But I don't think this market is very large. TOAW is an example of a game where the graphical version was almost unplayable with the "plastic soldier" look. It was hard enough when using symbols!

But......you don't need that many games of the old school SPI / Victory type on the PC to get rather bored (pardon the pun). The difficulty I find with turn based games on the PC is that unless you have a human player there is no excitement or challenge. One way of bulding a players adrenaline up and (in my opinion) increasing enjoyment from the game is to put the player under time pressure. Which is how some of the continuous clock (I won't call them RTS as this confuses things with the Red Alert clones) based games have gone. Playing at speed has been a long tradition of strategy type games to balance different skill levels (Chess, Go for example).

It's interesting that when "continuous clock" games are played in multiplayer mode the clock speeds are invariably much slower than against the AI.

With respect to graphics, good graphics do enhance a game. But fancy graphics do not neccessarily mean good graphics. Taking Les's Panzer General series example I will agree that Allied Assault and Scorched Earth did not really benefit from the "3-D" makeover. However I would strongly argue that People's General in "2.5-D" was much better looking and no less a game that PzGen 1 or 2. It's in the communication of information that graphics are important - and sometimes this does require more information e.g. the TOAW red amber green dots.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: wodin
Didz I quoted you and Les and said who wouldnt want that?

You replied and said many people here wouldnt want it as they would need to upgrade PC's and went on to explain why.

Now you have split boardgamer sand tabletop gamers I understand. I was talking about tabletop gamers so in effect I was right to say who wouldnt want that.

Yes. I think the pre-requisite to getting these games right is to recognise that you are catering for two distinct wargame markets. Even though one person may actually appear in both.

As you say a Tabletop Wargamer would droll over the features described in my earlier post. Thats 10 seconds before they open their wallet and empty their savings account to be able to play that same.

ORIGINAL: wodin
As for boardgamers graphics like KP and COTD are superb and do it justice.

Yep. The graphic's in COTD are perfect for a boardgame style wargame. Just enough to do it justice, anymore would be too much.

Just imagine if everytime there was a battle you had to witness a five minute video clip (probably the same five minute video clip), if the units were represented by animated figures that marched over the map, or little boats could be seen sailing up and down the Danube and refugee's fled like ants from a captured town.

Would it add to the gameplay Nah!
Would it add to the game time Yeh!
Would it add to the enjoyment. Nah!
Would it affect game performance Yeh!
Would it increase the Minimum PC Spec. Yeh!
Would it increase the disk space required. Yeh!

And yet there are computer boardgames with all these features in out there in the market. I know I;ve bought a couple.

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Let me try again, WHAT GAME WHICH PEOPLE HERE MIGHT CONSIDER TO BE A REAL WARGAME HAS BEEN 'RUINED' WITH 'FANCY' GRAPHICS?

Ah! Sorry, misunderstood the first time.

The problem with answering your question is that its extremely difficult to agree on the definition of a REAL WARGAME and has been as far back as I can remember. I can recall when Boardgames were not considered real wargames, now we seem to be in an era where tabletop style games are no longer considered real wargames by those who consider themselves real wargamers and yet far wider variety of games than ever are claiming to be real wargames.

ORIGINAL: wodin
SO in effect me you and Les all agree.
SO YIPPEE!

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Real wargames don't have fancy graphics.
Real wargames are board games, or miniatures collections
Thus, there is no such thing as a "real" wargame with "fancy graphics".

Not quite, it seems[:D]

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
So yeah, I will use Panzer General 3d Allied Assault as a game that ruined itself with graphics enhancements no one needed.

So one game about 8 years ago. Wouldn't that mean that the premise of this thread and all others which rail against graphics is wrong as it does not apply to real wargames.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

No, the premise of the thread (as I see it), is we are not even being given the choice much any more.

We are having too many games shoved on us that don't even qualify as wargames at all, using either Didz means of assessment, or mine.

Thus, they suck from the start, continue to suck all the way through, and suck at the end.

And meanwhile, people that real wargamers would refuse to actually call wargamers on most days, insist they are indeed wargames, when we wargamers might be inclined to refuse to even call those persons wargamers, thus making their remarks concerning wargames really of no real value to us wargamers.

People can say what they want about the graphics of say Code Name Panzers for instance or Sudden Strike, or Blitzkrieg, but in the end, I refuse to even call it a wargame really.
Just an arcade game that doesn't require you to stand in front of a machine feeding it quarters.

And no, it does not change anything if the contentious person also likes my brand of wargame or Didz's brand of wargame.
It does not matter if you have designed both.
It does not matter if you are a paid reviewer of a magazine.

I really don't care

An apple is an apple, an orange is an orange, and a maple tree is not a fruit.
So what they can all be said to be plants.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

No, the premise of the thread (as I see it), is we are not even being given the choice much any more.

We are having too many games shoved on us that don't even qualify as wargames at all, using either Didz means of assessment, or mine.

Calling a duck a swan shouldn't fool the swans. There are plenty of wargames being made and sold, it's just harder to find them. I think where you are missing the boat is that non-wargames have caught up and overtaken the number of wargames. Back in 94 the PC was not suitable for some of the genres it is now, so strategy games were the majority. Now, simply because companies are selling more FPS and other games, doesn't mean that strategy games have disappeared.

And meanwhile, people that real wargamers would refuse to actually call wargamers on most days, insist they are indeed wargames, when we wargamers might be inclined to refuse to even call those persons wargamers, thus making their remarks concerning wargames really of no real value to us wargamers.

So f'ing what.

Why are you so concerned with what people consider to be their hobby? If someone playing The Sims thinks it's deep strategy does that prevent Tiller from releasing his games?

What's wrong Les, you falling victim to peer pressure or something?

This whole thread is simply a gathering of cumudgeons who like to rail against graphic based games, even though those games have 0 impact on the strategy genre.

So why not rename the thread "why I hate FPS and RTS" as so far it's been completely irrelevant to strategy or wargames.

[VicKevlar]

And meanwhile, people that real wargamers would refuse to actually call wargamers on most days, insist they are indeed wargames, when we wargamers might be inclined to refuse to even call those persons wargamers, thus making their remarks concerning wargames really of no real value to us wargamers.

Quit trolling Les........we've been through this before.....

[EricGuitarJames]

This whole thread is simply a gathering of cumudgeons who like to rail against graphic based games, even though those games have 0 impact on the strategy genre.

I don't think that's quite true. I think it's more that some of the posters are concerned that what they see as 'real' wargames are being replaced in the market-place by games with a 'war' theme that lack the depth and accuracy that those gamers demand.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Hey look it's Vic one of the gonads that helped ruin Wargamer.

Vic the only troll on this thread is you.

Go moderate somewhere else.

I don't mind Dinsdale's comments, because he poses them in a non hostile fashion.

You on the otherhand have a track record that I could care less about.

Go ahead lock the thread turf me even. I won't suffer.

[wodin]

Hmm,

Didz I really do think we are coming from the same angle. In a game like KP I wouldnt want video clips and repetitive animations. I would like to add atmosphere by same good sound effects though but not video clips etc etc. If you watch a film of anykind with no sound no matter the film it is rubbish, horror films lose the horror war films loose the impact. Sound is a very good way of adding atmosphere without detriment to the actual game itself.
THOUGH IM NOT TRYING TO SAY I WANT A WARGAME TO LOOK LIKE A FILM. Leave that to the FPS games.

Tabletop PC wargames I think would be enhanced the way Les previously said they could be.

HArdly any of us here play RTS games like Panzer or Blitz. Especially if they are after some real strategy. I dont want graphics like this either in my wargames to be honest.

[VicKevlar]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Hey look it's Vic one of the gonads that helped ruin Wargamer.

Vic the only troll on this thread is you.

Go moderate somewhere else.

I don't mind Dinsdale's comments, because he poses them in a non hostile fashion.

You on the otherhand have a track record that I could care less about.

Go ahead lock the thread turf me even. I won't suffer.

Thx for playing....enjoy the vacation.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

This whole thread is simply a gathering of cumudgeons who like to rail against graphic based games, even though those games have 0 impact on the strategy genre.

I don't think that's quite true. I think it's more that some of the posters are concerned that what they see as 'real' wargames are being replaced in the market-place by games with a 'war' theme that lack the depth and accuracy that those gamers demand.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if the publishers of C&C generals want to call 'Zero Hour' a wargame, nor does it bother me that non-computer games like Warhammer 40K are now considered wargames by the people that market and play them.

My children and I play these games and enjoy them as a distracting form of entertainment.

My concern rests with those designers and design companies who still claim to be producing 'Real Wargames' of either the Board or Tabletop variety and yet are getting distracted/corrupted by trends in the rest of the market, or who fail to appreciate that there are two distinct but not compatible design approaches.

The consequences of this muddle-headed thinking are wargame disasters like '1813' which ought to have been a ground breaking wargame but instead got turned into a heap of shite by a design team that didn't know what it was doing. Another was La Grande Armee at Austerlitz ruined by real time programming. Les is highlighting similar distasters from the boardgaming angle.

Even great games like Medieval Totalwar which are fun to play and and well researched fail to make it as brilliant wargames becuase the design team can't resist dabbling in gimmicks. After all the primary goal for MTW should have been the provision of a multiple player campaign capability. It was actually the first thing everyone asked for on the MTW forum, but Creative Assembly couldn't provide it becuase they had shot themselves in the foot by choosing a real time tactical interface. But the worse example so far and medal for wargaming lemon of the year has to go to 'War & Peace' the only excuse being that the design team were French.

I'm sure a lot of this is pressure from 'the men in suits' and 'bean counters' who think that adding these gimmicks will somehow make their game appeal to gamers and boost their sales by tapping into the RTS market. Instead what it does is cripple the sales into the wargaming market and waste everyones time and money.

By all means lets monitor the gaming market for new idea's and techniques but lets remember what the people who buy 'real wargames' want. Because they are the people who will buy the game, or walk away. If you want to sell RTS games then do it just don't try and sell them as wargames.