Little story in the beginning:
"I had problem in PBEM-game Poland-Czechoslovakia (year was -38 or -39 and I was playing Poland side) because I had no at-rifles available. I decided to buy some regular 75mm howizers and use them to shoot "direct fire" at enemy tanks (and "non-direct fire" if necessary).
I was suprised because this weapon worked like "old trains toilet". 75mm howizers were accurate and powerfull against any tank. Even PZIV:s blew up as soon as they appeared in my sight."
Do you have any experience with alternative at-weapons?
alternative at-weapons?
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
RE: alternative at-weapons?
In my extremely painful, but challenging British campaign I've found that my 25 pounder guns make excellent backup AT emplacements. In my current battle, I'm up against German IIIj's and all my tanks, including the couple Sherman III's I've been able to scrounge, are horribly outclassed. Since it's a meeting engagement I knew that a head on slug fest over the middle 3 clusters (typical cross arrangement) was out of the question. So I moved my ragtag Tank force to reserves behind a hill and heavily fortified the group of hexes that start on my side of the deploy line. Instead of placing my 25 pounders behind a hill and using them for fast arty support, I set them up in a wedge behind my v-hexes and set up an infantry company in front of the hexes. I also had some support 6 pounders set up in front of the 25's and a couple 2 pounder ATG's from my core force, though they can take out halftracks, they are largely ignored by the IIIj's.
I started smoking the area few hexes away from my forward infantry for about a 15 hex length, using mostly 3 inch mortors and the 25's. I kept that up from deployment bombardment up until the first German halftrack emerged form the smoke and then I switched to suppressive fire from the mortors and direct for the 25's. For the first time I can remember, my Boys AT rifles actually made a difference, they seemed to be handling the halftracks nicely while the 25's and ATG's pounded on the IIIj's when they arrived. What was great about the 25's is that not only did they flatten the IIIj's at a pretty good clip, they also heavily suppressed the dismounted infantry (from the destroyed halftracks) that the tanks were in the same hex as, making them easy kills for my Infantry and my Vickers MG's.
True, I took some pretty nasty casualties from the 150mm arty the German's brought down on my concentrated troops, I outlasted the attack. I also lost my Hq to a freak airstrike (see note at bottom). Ater the German armor was neutralized (which I used scouts with 0-range fire to see behind my smoke screen, I had moved them up when the Germans where taking all the victory hexes I was ignoring, they stayed hidden in rough terrain while the entire German attack force drove right over them whithout a clue) I sent my tanks in to clean up the German Infantry guarding the other victory hexes and to root out the pesky 81mm mortors that almost demoralised my dug-in defenders. I haven't finished the battle, but I'm soon to.
How I lost my Hq: I had them behind a hill, one hex away from their command car just a few hexes from my Infantry. BIG mistake. A Heinchel came flying in to attack the car and the splash damage decimated my squad to the point that they decided to disperse. Ugh, that's an expensive lesson. Luckily I had taken out the German HQ earlier, when some of my rear-area muarading Stuarts had stumbled across it. Unfortunately for the brave Stuart platoon, a couple IIIj's took note of their shenanigans and took them out at a comfortable 20 hexes or so. Some of the crews survived to fight another day though, and my core force sure can use the experience. I've rambled on too long.
Anyway, the 25 pounder seems to be a nice AT alternative [:)]
I started smoking the area few hexes away from my forward infantry for about a 15 hex length, using mostly 3 inch mortors and the 25's. I kept that up from deployment bombardment up until the first German halftrack emerged form the smoke and then I switched to suppressive fire from the mortors and direct for the 25's. For the first time I can remember, my Boys AT rifles actually made a difference, they seemed to be handling the halftracks nicely while the 25's and ATG's pounded on the IIIj's when they arrived. What was great about the 25's is that not only did they flatten the IIIj's at a pretty good clip, they also heavily suppressed the dismounted infantry (from the destroyed halftracks) that the tanks were in the same hex as, making them easy kills for my Infantry and my Vickers MG's.
True, I took some pretty nasty casualties from the 150mm arty the German's brought down on my concentrated troops, I outlasted the attack. I also lost my Hq to a freak airstrike (see note at bottom). Ater the German armor was neutralized (which I used scouts with 0-range fire to see behind my smoke screen, I had moved them up when the Germans where taking all the victory hexes I was ignoring, they stayed hidden in rough terrain while the entire German attack force drove right over them whithout a clue) I sent my tanks in to clean up the German Infantry guarding the other victory hexes and to root out the pesky 81mm mortors that almost demoralised my dug-in defenders. I haven't finished the battle, but I'm soon to.
How I lost my Hq: I had them behind a hill, one hex away from their command car just a few hexes from my Infantry. BIG mistake. A Heinchel came flying in to attack the car and the splash damage decimated my squad to the point that they decided to disperse. Ugh, that's an expensive lesson. Luckily I had taken out the German HQ earlier, when some of my rear-area muarading Stuarts had stumbled across it. Unfortunately for the brave Stuart platoon, a couple IIIj's took note of their shenanigans and took them out at a comfortable 20 hexes or so. Some of the crews survived to fight another day though, and my core force sure can use the experience. I've rambled on too long.
Anyway, the 25 pounder seems to be a nice AT alternative [:)]
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Field guns and infantry guns make excellent AT weapons. If I happen to have those in a scenario I and there are enemy tanks around, it's my habit to first use these arty pieces. If they hit they'll often kill the tank thus spreading suppression around. And as mentioned in another thread, these guns are hard to kill. Makes it safer for my real AT-units and tanks to engage after infantry guns have popped couple tanks [:D]
Voriax
Voriax
Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!
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FlashfyreSP
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
The 25 pdr howitzer was used historically by the British as a stop-gap AT gun, similar to the way the Germans used the 88mm AA gun.
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Ambushing snipers do their job well by hitting T-34's with rifle and sending those up in flames.
Just kidding, I dislike how units with no suitable weapons can assault tanks and destroy them.
So I'd suggest assaulting with infantry units, all sort of scouts work fine not to mention infantry.
Also if you got engineers - I'm not sure if Polish forces got them in 1939 with satchel charges - you can use high explosive packages.
Maybe this helps you some!
Just kidding, I dislike how units with no suitable weapons can assault tanks and destroy them.
So I'd suggest assaulting with infantry units, all sort of scouts work fine not to mention infantry.
Also if you got engineers - I'm not sure if Polish forces got them in 1939 with satchel charges - you can use high explosive packages.
Maybe this helps you some!
RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
The 25 pdr howitzer was used historically by the British as a stop-gap AT gun, similar to the way the Germans used the 88mm AA gun.
Do you have some experience using the Brits? I was wondering if the Bishop was an effective unit. It's got that 25 pdr and looks tempting to upgrade to.
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Hey TheChin! Excellent commentary. Your input will definately help me modify some of my play tactics. Thanks
In combat, you will never meet a noisey veteran recon team.
RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: TheChin
ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
The 25 pdr howitzer was used historically by the British as a stop-gap AT gun, similar to the way the Germans used the 88mm AA gun.
Do you have some experience using the Brits? I was wondering if the Bishop was an effective unit. It's got that 25 pdr and looks tempting to upgrade to.
I played the Brits all the way through they WWII campaign, and IMHO, the Priest is a better buy for SP artillery. I kept my static 25 pdrs (which saved my butt many, many times) but the 105mm is a better gun for direct-fire engagement against vehicles and fortifications. The Bishop is no slouch, but the Priest edges it.
FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.
RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: FNG
ORIGINAL: TheChin
ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
The 25 pdr howitzer was used historically by the British as a stop-gap AT gun, similar to the way the Germans used the 88mm AA gun.
Do you have some experience using the Brits? I was wondering if the Bishop was an effective unit. It's got that 25 pdr and looks tempting to upgrade to.
I played the Brits all the way through they WWII campaign, and IMHO, the Priest is a better buy for SP artillery. I kept my static 25 pdrs (which saved my butt many, many times) but the 105mm is a better gun for direct-fire engagement against vehicles and fortifications. The Bishop is no slouch, but the Priest edges it.
Thanks! I don't think it's available yet, but I'll keep my eyes open for it. I have a few platoons of tanks that have been destroyed since the first battle and if I ever get enough rebuild points I might change one over to them.
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: FNG
I played the Brits all the way through they WWII campaign, and IMHO, the Priest is a better buy for SP artillery. I kept my static 25 pdrs (which saved my butt many, many times) but the 105mm is a better gun for direct-fire engagement against vehicles and fortifications. The Bishop is no slouch, but the Priest edges it.
While we're at it, what do you think of the Deacon? It's available also, but I haven't really been able to develop the finesse of TD tactics yet so I'm leery of adding them when my points are so precious.
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Five step tank killing guide for snipers:
1. Climb to tree nearby the road and wait for the tank to come close. 2. Shoot the driver (Yep, 20mph and you have to hit on first but good ones can). 3. While the tank panics jump down and run to it. 4. Drop a grenade in and run. 5. Run away.
I could give it a 1% chance of success
Edit: Can't spell
1. Climb to tree nearby the road and wait for the tank to come close. 2. Shoot the driver (Yep, 20mph and you have to hit on first but good ones can). 3. While the tank panics jump down and run to it. 4. Drop a grenade in and run. 5. Run away.
I could give it a 1% chance of success
Edit: Can't spell
Ei kannattais.
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Procrustes
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
Playing Lost Victories taught me to love those little German 75mm infantry howitzers - they are small enough that they are hard to spot and can be pushed around, and they come with a couple of rounds of HEAT. I had pretty good luck ambushing tanks with them, and very good luck taking out forts/pillboxes/pits/etc. (Much easier w/ C&C on - defensive stance makes a big difference.)
I was suprised to find in the Screaming Eagles MC that my 60mm mortars are pretty effective AVF killers when I can use them direct fire. Tried it in desperation and it worked. Really helped get the experience up, too. Not likely to take out a tank, but can scare them off for a bit. Killers for HT's and AC's. A desperate move, but I found that the paratroopers are often in desperate situations!
I was suprised to find in the Screaming Eagles MC that my 60mm mortars are pretty effective AVF killers when I can use them direct fire. Tried it in desperation and it worked. Really helped get the experience up, too. Not likely to take out a tank, but can scare them off for a bit. Killers for HT's and AC's. A desperate move, but I found that the paratroopers are often in desperate situations!
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Procrustes
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: Riekko
{snip}
I was suprised because this weapon worked like "old trains toilet".
{snip}
Hi!
That's an odd expression - "worked like [an?] old train's toilet" - can you tell me what it means? Sounds funny!
,
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Marek Tucan
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
The 25 pdr howitzer was used historically by the British as a stop-gap AT gun, similar to the way the Germans used the 88mm AA gun.
For example in Tobruk they've made a nasty surprise for the Panzers...
Btw does SB know how often did Soviets or US employ their excellent 85mm and 90mm AA-Guns to counter tanks? Both of these guns were later developped into tank guns AFAIK.
Tuccy
RE: alternative at-weapons?
I wasn't kidding about snipers killing tanks (even Tiger!) - it's frustrating when happens to yourself and funny when happens to enemy. It makes no sense that units with no suitable weapons can assault tanks but such is life. Doesn't ruin great game though.
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Well, in Finland we have these older trains where toilet is basicly hole on the floor. It's so simple that it works perfectly [:D]ORIGINAL: Procrustes
Hi!
That's an odd expression - "worked like [an?] old train's toilet" - can you tell me what it means? Sounds funny!
RE: alternative at-weapons?
The sniper can leap up on the enemy tank and knock on the hatch. He says something in the enemies language like "Comrade, there is an enemy position just ahead, I'll point it out to you." The tank commander opens his hatch, and the sniper kills him with a knife or a pistol and then drops a grenade in.
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Procrustes
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: Riekko
Well, in Finland we have these older trains where toilet is basicly hole on the floor. It's so simple that it works perfectly [:D]ORIGINAL: Procrustes
Hi!
That's an odd expression - "worked like [an?] old train's toilet" - can you tell me what it means? Sounds funny!
Thanks - I had a feeling that it may be something like that! Must make strolling along the train tracks less appealing....
RE: alternative at-weapons?
Howitzers and FGs can be good AT weapons, but too often they have to rely on shell power rather than KE due to their low MV.
My preference is to use Heavy AA guns as stop-gaps... thier higher MV results in a higher KE and as a result, a better penetration without losing much in the way of Warhead size.
My preference is to use Heavy AA guns as stop-gaps... thier higher MV results in a higher KE and as a result, a better penetration without losing much in the way of Warhead size.
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Belisarius
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RE: alternative at-weapons?
ORIGINAL: Procrustes
ORIGINAL: Riekko
Well, in Finland we have these older trains where toilet is basicly hole on the floor. It's so simple that it works perfectly [:D]ORIGINAL: Procrustes
Hi!
That's an odd expression - "worked like [an?] old train's toilet" - can you tell me what it means? Sounds funny!
Thanks - I had a feeling that it may be something like that! Must make strolling along the train tracks less appealing....
Indeed. Imagine why using the toilet when the train was at the station was strictly forbidden? [:D]
We had those too, but I haven't seen any wagons with those since the late 70's. Now they're all these airplane-style SCHWOOP pressurized things.
edit: And thus, a thread discussing various use of artillery for AT purposes, spiralled into a post about train turd disposal. The internet is amazing.
Got StuG?