I am fairly new to this game, and am having problems efficiantly conducting recon operations.
Whenever I try to actively seek out the enemy, my recon forces always end up taking heavy casualties, even though I do my best not to become engaged and tied down.
Recently, I have gotten better with Armoured Cars, and their slaughter now is less than before, but my reconaissance effort still is lacking.
Take for example the first mission in MCNA (i can only play the first one due to the evil Yugoslavia bug). I have 12 turns, and my recon cars always get shot up whenever they try to scout the enemy... moving fast is supposed to make a harder target, yet the british 2lb AT guns always seem to hit with the first shot. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
The fact that I have played the mission enough to know where the strongpoints are doesn't mean that I should consider myself a success when it comes to recon... there has to be a way to conduct such operations without committing suicide every time...
So I come to you for help in showing me how. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Oh and BTW, if you play the first night mission, for some reason I can still use planes, although the briefing says that I can't. And in addition, when i play just the straight mission without "A little extra help for the task" option, it still gives me armour and reinforcements, and when I play it with the option on... it doesn't. Weird.
I have the campaign mission patch, if that helps.
Need Recon Help
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Rune Iversen
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Originally posted by Leto II:
I am fairly new to this game, and am having problems efficiantly conducting recon operations.
Whenever I try to actively seek out the enemy, my recon forces always end up taking heavy casualties, even though I do my best not to become engaged and tied down.
Recently, I have gotten better with Armoured Cars, and their slaughter now is less than before, but my reconaissance effort still is lacking.
Take for example the first mission in MCNA (i can only play the first one due to the evil Yugoslavia bug). I have 12 turns, and my recon cars always get shot up whenever they try to scout the enemy... moving fast is supposed to make a harder target, yet the british 2lb AT guns always seem to hit with the first shot. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
The fact that I have played the mission enough to know where the strongpoints are doesn't mean that I should consider myself a success when it comes to recon... there has to be a way to conduct such operations without committing suicide every time...
So I come to you for help in showing me how. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Oh and BTW, if you play the first night mission, for some reason I can still use planes, although the briefing says that I can't. And in addition, when i play just the straight mission without "A little extra help for the task" option, it still gives me armour and reinforcements, and when I play it with the option on... it doesn't. Weird.
I have the campaign mission patch, if that helps.
All right, recon is about one thing (in Europe at least, US recon doctrine is different) only:
SEE WITOUT BEEING SEEN!!!
What this means is that you should not "rush" your armourted cars into contact with the enemy as fast as possible, they will only die in a nasty and horrible way. Driving quickly makes it a little bit harder for enemy units without proper firecontrol/rangefinder to hit you, but that is all.
The 2 lb guns will have plenty of time to range in on you, negating their "minus" for shooting at a fast moving target, and if you drive fast you will be easier to spot as well.
The key to a succesfull recon is seeing the enemy before he sees you, allowing you to deploy your forces accordingly to the enmemys disposition of forces.
As a secondary objective your recon forces can be used as a screen against the enemys recon, keeping him in the dark about your own disposition of forces.
Thirdly recon forces can be used to breakthrough light enemy resistance, allowing you to open up a route of advance without having to deploy the main Arty/Inf/Armor assets of your force.
All three options can theoretically be pursued at once, but be wary of spreading your recon forces too thin or you might end up accomplishing nothing.
How to do it:
First you will want to compose the group conducting the recon, the ideal mix here ís a balance between armoured cars/light tanks,fast small unarmoured wheelbase vehicles, mounted/dismounted infantry/scout teams and some indirect fire/smoke capability. Sometimes you will have to settle for less, and might even have to leave one of the elements out. Preferably all of these units will be classed as "recon/elite recon" units.
The key in offensive recon is moving forward carefully taking full advantage of terrain, position your elements where they can see/owerwatch large parts of the battlefield. Lead with your fast armoured cars/tamks in open terrain, and use infantry to lead the advance in dense terrain (if time allows). Remember that all recon units are horribly fragile, you will need to move forward in "bounds" with one element moving, and one overwatching the moving element.
If time is of the essence, you might have to move less cautiously, but you must still remember your overwatch elements, and postioning units where they can see.
When you make contact with the enemy it will happen in one of two ways, either you will spot him, or he will open fire on you!
If you spot him first, leave one unit (preferably infantry, since they are harder to spot) with LOS to the spotted unit, and begin moving around it. You will now need to ascertain whether the enemy unit is there on its own, if it has support nearby and in that case in what form, you will also need to ascertain whether the enemy unit is entrenched and/or a part of a larger defensive/offensive effort. If the enemy unit is alone and with weak or no support (say an enemy recon unit) you can usually risk pressing though. If it is part of a larger enemy effort, your recon units have just fullfilled their mission of finding the enemy <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
If the enemy unit opens fire on you upon contact, you might be in dire straits! If your unit is not immediately killed in the opening of fire, you will need to make a desicion whether to fight or flee. If you fight, have your unit upon fire upon the firing enemy unit, hoping to destroy/retreat it in one volley, If you are scouting with infantry and they are immediately suppressed so theyt cannot move, you might have no other option but to fight.
The usual decision though will be to flee, especially if you have not spotted the firing enemy unit. If your unit have smoke available, pop it immediately! The your unit will need to retrace its steps, back to a place where you are sure the enemy firing unit cannot hit you. Your indirect fire element might come into play here, as a way of extracting hopelessly pinned units by the use of indirect smoke and/or HE.Your overwatch elements might also come into play, providing suppression on the enemy and perhaps some smoke as well. After you have extracted your unit you will then need to decide whether to press forward to have another look at the enemy/press forward, or find an alternative route.
Just remember that your primary objective is finding the enemy, and ascertaining his strenght and assets. Your mission should not be to fight (though you might have to) or to destroy the enemy. The mission of killing strong enemy forces should be left to your "real" fighting units, while your recon continues into his rear areas, disrupting artillery, support and hq units as the opportunity presents itself
On the defnesive, you can iether keep your recon assets as a highly moble reserve or keep them as a picketline in front of your main defenses.
Keeping them as a reserve is most usefull if you have a solid main defense line and have good knowledege of where the enemy is going to strike. They can use their high mobility to move to danger spots and help plugging holes (one of the few instances where recon units are expected to fight) or you can use them to guard your rear area assets against enemy paradrop/infiltration/ breakthroughs.
Keeping them as pickets is most useful if you do not know where the enemy main effort is and your defense is either not emplaced, or highly mobile. Your recon will then be able to provide information on the enemy dispostion, perhaps picking off isolated enemy (recon)units, thereby weakening him and depriving him of his eyes and ears, perhaps you can even direct indirect fire on concentrations of enemy units weakening and slowing him even further.
With the time and information your recon has bought, you can either move your main effort to intercept the enemy (if you are mobile) or emplace your units to defend against the enemys main effort (if you wish to a specific piece of ground), you can theoretically do both if your forces allow. Having allowed you to defend effectively your trecon units should then be moved into reserve, as they are not very well suited to fight in the front lines,they have neither the manpower nor the staying power to accomplish desicive results (unless you get lucky <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> )
There you have it, a comprehensive guide to using recon units the european way. As far as I can understand you have just rushed your recon forwards, hoping that they "might" see something and trusting that speed alone would protect them. Secondly you seem to have used recon units as main fighting units, for which they are not suited.
I do not own MCNA and so I can unfortunately not provide any insights here.
I hope that my small guide here will be helpfull in putting your recon in its proper place. I have myself served in a mechanized recon outfit in the Danish army, so I would claim that I know a bit about it <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . As the motto of my old unit goes: Dominus Nocte "We own the night".
Happy gaming.
Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within
Fighting the EUnuchs from within
Yes thank you, very informative. I was rushing the recon forward too fast. (The scenario in which I was playing though was only 12 turns long, so speed is of some issue but doesn't require such suicidal tactics.)
The overwatch is a necessity... just a matter of me getting more familiar with the game. I learned pretty quick to use the smoke discharger on my armoured cars as soon as they were fired upon, but they only have 1 smoke ammo, so that tactic is only good once.
Anyway, thanks once again. Recon seems to me to be perhaps the most important part of a game such as this, so I'm hoping that eventually i'll get it right <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
The overwatch is a necessity... just a matter of me getting more familiar with the game. I learned pretty quick to use the smoke discharger on my armoured cars as soon as they were fired upon, but they only have 1 smoke ammo, so that tactic is only good once.
Anyway, thanks once again. Recon seems to me to be perhaps the most important part of a game such as this, so I'm hoping that eventually i'll get it right <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Rune Iversen
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Proper recon should always be a large part of your battleplan (unless your plan is to load up on Tigers and go hell for leather across the map <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> ). The first hints of what you can expect comes in your intelligence report in the briefing for the campaign/scenario. That is what you have to work with initially. Against the AI, proper recon will be a good thing to do, and often it will be decisive, but face it, the AI isn´t the fastest animal in the woods with regards to unit movement/placement and you can often get away with a small slip up.
Against a human opponent however in a custom scenario (a "meeting engagement" perhaps) recon becomes all important, since your opponent is probably as wily as yourself <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It is in these conditions that you need to ascertain that you win the "recon-battle", allowing you to observe his movements, while leaving him totally in the dark with the regards to your own. A human opponent deprived of his recon assets will often be more cautious, leaving you with the initiative, and even if he continues to move forward, your recon will keep you informed of his whereabouts, force strenght and axis of advance, allowing you to plan the mother of all ambushes on his forces.
But again you must remember that recon is a supplement and not a mean to an end, recon itself won´t win you the battle, but with proper recon your chances of winning will be higher. But again, only your main force of armor and infantry can beat the enmy decisively, but rewcon will often allow you to chose the time and place to do so
Against a human opponent however in a custom scenario (a "meeting engagement" perhaps) recon becomes all important, since your opponent is probably as wily as yourself <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It is in these conditions that you need to ascertain that you win the "recon-battle", allowing you to observe his movements, while leaving him totally in the dark with the regards to your own. A human opponent deprived of his recon assets will often be more cautious, leaving you with the initiative, and even if he continues to move forward, your recon will keep you informed of his whereabouts, force strenght and axis of advance, allowing you to plan the mother of all ambushes on his forces.
But again you must remember that recon is a supplement and not a mean to an end, recon itself won´t win you the battle, but with proper recon your chances of winning will be higher. But again, only your main force of armor and infantry can beat the enmy decisively, but rewcon will often allow you to chose the time and place to do so
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RichardTheFirst
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Thank you very much Veejgard. Just fascinating (and I'm not kidding)...
Would like to make a question though (and I need to be a bit graphic to do it): One of my tactics consists in moving one (or more) good spotting unit, let's say Cavalry (I like cavalry for several reasons: they are faster than infantry, they have the special recon hability, they are cheap, they do not become immobilized or destroyed and above all they are INFANTRY) very carefully in front of my advance. I stop every hex and look all the way around before i proceed to the next hex. My main force, tanks, halftracks, etc, etc, is just behind me, 2 hexs away. When I reach my limit either because I can't move more or because I had enemy fire (ok let's say I lost now max 2 to 4 horseman) I stop. Sometimes I have to stop before the limit for being suicidal or to risky to proceed further. The spotted units I found in this process are now the target for my force that will, by the end of the turn, be in line with my cavalry.
Probably just a question of semantics, but I'm asking anyway: can we call this recon?
Thanks,
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
Would like to make a question though (and I need to be a bit graphic to do it): One of my tactics consists in moving one (or more) good spotting unit, let's say Cavalry (I like cavalry for several reasons: they are faster than infantry, they have the special recon hability, they are cheap, they do not become immobilized or destroyed and above all they are INFANTRY) very carefully in front of my advance. I stop every hex and look all the way around before i proceed to the next hex. My main force, tanks, halftracks, etc, etc, is just behind me, 2 hexs away. When I reach my limit either because I can't move more or because I had enemy fire (ok let's say I lost now max 2 to 4 horseman) I stop. Sometimes I have to stop before the limit for being suicidal or to risky to proceed further. The spotted units I found in this process are now the target for my force that will, by the end of the turn, be in line with my cavalry.
Probably just a question of semantics, but I'm asking anyway: can we call this recon?
Thanks,
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
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Rune Iversen
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Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
Thank you very much Veejgard. Just fascinating (and I'm not kidding)...
Would like to make a question though (and I need to be a bit graphic to do it): One of my tactics consists in moving one (or more) good spotting unit, let's say Cavalry (I like cavalry for several reasons: they are faster than infantry, they have the special recon hability, they are cheap, they do not become immobilized or destroyed and above all they are INFANTRY) very carefully in front of my advance. I stop every hex and look all the way around before i proceed to the next hex. My main force, tanks, halftracks, etc, etc, is just behind me, 2 hexs away. When I reach my limit either because I can't move more or because I had enemy fire (ok let's say I lost now max 2 to 4 horseman) I stop. Sometimes I have to stop before the limit for being suicidal or to risky to proceed further. The spotted units I found in this process are now the target for my force that will, by the end of the turn, be in line with my cavalry.
Probably just a question of semantics, but I'm asking anyway: can we call this recon?
Thanks,
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
Yes, you can call it recon, but it is recon of a different kind.
The thing I am describing is recon at an "operational" level, where you uitilize recon assets far in advance of your own units, operating almost independently of your other forces, in order to secure information about the enemy.
The thing you is describing is using recon units as an integrated part of your forces , by using them to draw fire from the enemy, thereby giving your main force the opportunity to direct-fire upon the spotted enemy. This is quite a limited way of using your assets, and will probably be most efficient against the AI. Against any competent human player, this is a probably a bad tactic.
My suggestion is that instead of following your cavalry with your main force from 1-2 hexes away, try to keep a greater distance, allowing your main force to manuever, instead of getting caught up in the fighting immediately (of course you might wish for your main force to get stuck in at once, but by keeping distance you will at least have the choise <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
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Rune Iversen
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Originally posted by Krec:
i usually set my recon troops range to 0. this helps keep them save as they dont fire when unit is in sight.
An excellent thing to do <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
If range is set to 0, your recon unit will not give its postion away by indiscriminately upon enemy units. As far as I understand, setting the range to 0 will also make it harder to spot as well.
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RichardTheFirst
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I see what you mean, and I often have to keep more distance if there is danger of my main force catch fire from units not spotted yet. I still try to catch up the recon units by the end of turn though, in order to protect them in opponents turn and be able to use them again next turn. My cavalry a lot of times do not catch fire and often spot the enemy before they fire. They really do their job: that is to spot (of course that against humans they will catch fire more often).Originally posted by Vejgaard:
Yes, you can call it recon, but it is recon of a different kind.
The thing I am describing is recon at an "operational" level, where you uitilize recon assets far in advance of your own units, operating almost independently of your other forces, in order to secure information about the enemy.
The thing you is describing is using recon units as an integrated part of your forces , by using them to draw fire from the enemy, thereby giving your main force the opportunity to direct-fire upon the spotted enemy. This is quite a limited way of using your assets, and will probably be most efficient against the AI. Against any competent human player, this is a probably a bad tactic.
My suggestion is that instead of following your cavalry with your main force from 1-2 hexes away, try to keep a greater distance, allowing your main force to manuever, instead of getting caught up in the fighting immediately (of course you might wish for your main force to get stuck in at once, but by keeping distance you will at least have the choise <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
Anyway I use only this tactics when the visibility is not very good or in a relatively "smoky" environment and if I want to mantain the pressure of a sustained advance.
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
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Larry Holt
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Excellent recon tactics posted here. If I may offer a few points.
If you carry a sniper or 2 man recon team on a vehicle, they can pop smoke when needed. They can also dismount with the vehicle in defilade then sneak out to a wood line, etc. to have a look. One and two man sized units are harder to spot than larger sizes. The game has a break point in spotting in that 2 man units are more than twice as hard to spot as a 4 man unit and snipers are even harder to kill once spotted.
May I suggest that you read my tactics guide at Frabio's Armor site. It has a section on recon.
It will have a better recon section if Veigaard will allow me to put his post in it. May I?
Thanks
[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]</p>
If you carry a sniper or 2 man recon team on a vehicle, they can pop smoke when needed. They can also dismount with the vehicle in defilade then sneak out to a wood line, etc. to have a look. One and two man sized units are harder to spot than larger sizes. The game has a break point in spotting in that 2 man units are more than twice as hard to spot as a 4 man unit and snipers are even harder to kill once spotted.
May I suggest that you read my tactics guide at Frabio's Armor site. It has a section on recon.
It will have a better recon section if Veigaard will allow me to put his post in it. May I?
Thanks
[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]</p>
Never take counsel of your fears.
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Rune Iversen
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Wow <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> , me providing an addition.Originally posted by Larry Holt:
Excellent recon tactics posted here. If I may offer a few points.
If you carry a sniper or 2 man recon team on a vehicle, they can pop smoke when needed. They can also dismount with the vehicle in defilade then sneak out to a wood line, etc. to have a look. One and two man sized units are harder to spot than larger sizes. The game has a break point in spotting in that 2 man units are more than twice as hard to spot as a 4 man unit and snipers are even harder to kill once spotted.
May I suggest that you read my tactics guide at Frabio's Armor site. It has a section on recon.
It will have a better recon section if Veigaard will allow me to put his post in it. May I?
Thanks
[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]
But seriously though: Knock yourself out with it <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> . You are very welcome to use it if you think it will help you make the "Tactics" section perfect. But just out of pure vanity I would like to have my name and (perhaps rank)in it <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> :
PFC (soon to be Sargeant) Rune "Vejgaard" Iversen
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RichardTheFirst
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I already downloaded the Tactics guide yesterday and had a look. I intend to read it all. Anyway I applaude the inclusion of Veejgaard above text. It is excellent.
If you don't mind a rookie in this Forum to make a suggestion for the tactics guide, Larry: what about a chapter about the tactics (or even better: the strategics)that were historically addopted and that are recommended for the different nationalities? Based on its strenghts and weaknesses...
If I remember correctly I saw that (ages ago) in SP1 manual for the major nations. I don't know if that already exists for the later versions, at least I tryed to found it and couldn't.
If it doesn't exist, well I'm just launching the idea maybe not in the tactics guide but in a "strategy guide" (kinda). I think it would be very usefull. Thanks for the attention.
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
If you don't mind a rookie in this Forum to make a suggestion for the tactics guide, Larry: what about a chapter about the tactics (or even better: the strategics)that were historically addopted and that are recommended for the different nationalities? Based on its strenghts and weaknesses...
If I remember correctly I saw that (ages ago) in SP1 manual for the major nations. I don't know if that already exists for the later versions, at least I tryed to found it and couldn't.
If it doesn't exist, well I'm just launching the idea maybe not in the tactics guide but in a "strategy guide" (kinda). I think it would be very usefull. Thanks for the attention.
RichardTheFirst
"Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar
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Larry Holt
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Ah, good idea. However time is an issue. I need to add in images, write the empty sections, test ver 7, take my boys camping, etc. And, it takes time to play and learn all those nationalities. Frankly I do not have the desire to spend months tweaking tactics for nations that I don't play much. If anyone would like to write something I am always open to co-authors. The section of paratroops was written entirely by another.Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
...
If you don't mind a rookie in this Forum to make a suggestion for the tactics guide, Larry: what about a chapter about the tactics (or even better: the strategics)that were historically addopted and that are recommended for the different nationalities? Based on its strenghts and weaknesses...
...
Never take counsel of your fears.
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Larry Holt
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Thanks, I always put in attribution as you may have seen. I will list yours as you request.Originally posted by Vejgaard:
Wow , me providing an addition.
But seriously though: Knock yourself out with it . You are very welcome to use it if you think it will help you make the "Tactics" section perfect. But just out of pure vanity I would like to have my name and (perhaps rank)in it <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> :
PFC (soon to be Sargeant) Rune "Vejgaard" Iversen
Never take counsel of your fears.
Damned good reply Vejgaard!
I think the only thing that I would add to that, from my own experiences in armoured recon. I s that when you come under fire the default action should be to 'bug out'. Even if you don't spot the shooter, the lads have done their job by provocing a responce that gives you some idea of where the enemy is.
My standerd tactics is usually to pop smoke, get out of sight, then send some infantry creeping forward to have a look see. If you have no infantry, you could try dismounting a crew, to have a look, but to be honest that never quite works right in the game. I need to check but I think a dismounted crew from a recon vehicle loose their recon status, though I may have to stand corrected on that point. But as a rule, the hassle of dismounting, then remounting withing the game engine doesn't realy make this a viable tactic.
In armoured recon, we were proud of our 'chicklenhawk' approach. The first shot and we were out of there!
I think the only thing that I would add to that, from my own experiences in armoured recon. I s that when you come under fire the default action should be to 'bug out'. Even if you don't spot the shooter, the lads have done their job by provocing a responce that gives you some idea of where the enemy is.
My standerd tactics is usually to pop smoke, get out of sight, then send some infantry creeping forward to have a look see. If you have no infantry, you could try dismounting a crew, to have a look, but to be honest that never quite works right in the game. I need to check but I think a dismounted crew from a recon vehicle loose their recon status, though I may have to stand corrected on that point. But as a rule, the hassle of dismounting, then remounting withing the game engine doesn't realy make this a viable tactic.
In armoured recon, we were proud of our 'chicklenhawk' approach. The first shot and we were out of there!
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
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Rune Iversen
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Originally posted by Dave R:
Damned good reply Vejgaard!
I think the only thing that I would add to that, from my own experiences in armoured recon. I s that when you come under fire the default action should be to 'bug out'. Even if you don't spot the shooter, the lads have done their job by provocing a responce that gives you some idea of where the enemy is.
My standerd tactics is usually to pop smoke, get out of sight, then send some infantry creeping forward to have a look see. If you have no infantry, you could try dismounting a crew, to have a look, but to be honest that never quite works right in the game. I need to check but I think a dismounted crew from a recon vehicle loose their recon status, though I may have to stand corrected on that point. But as a rule, the hassle of dismounting, then remounting withing the game engine doesn't realy make this a viable tactic.
In armoured recon, we were proud of our 'chicklenhawk' approach. The first shot and we were out of there!
Greetings fellow cavalryman (a shame they got rid of the horses though <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ).
It is as you say, THE most commonly used recon tactic to pop smoke and bug out if you come under fire, but in some situations (in a fluid mobile situation, where you want your recon to be aggressive and brush aside light enemy (recon)resistance) you might have to make the decision to utilize your recon to fight the enemy, but as always it depends upon the situation.
The problem with sending infantry forward to scout is that while they are better at spotting and staying unspotted themselves, they are not that fast and if time is the issue, you might not be able to afford to use the time needed for a proper recon on foot.
As for dismounting vehicle crew, it would be a nice touch if you could dismount individual crewmembers (say the tc or the loader) in order to send them forward on foot <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It might be outside the capabilities of SPWaW, but perhaps it could be incorporated into Combat Leader <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> .
as for the doing the "Chickenhawk" believe me ivé been there more times than I care to mention <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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Vejgaard, congratulations on NCO. Where/when's the promotion party? I drink Tuborg BTW...
All, this is probably one of the best, if not THE best posts on SPWAW tactics/weapons I've seen in the two + years I've been on this forum.
Kudos to all for explaining the "why" behind recon tactics instead of just "how to".
I look forward to Vejgaard's insights in the new tactics manual. Another excellent work...
All, this is probably one of the best, if not THE best posts on SPWAW tactics/weapons I've seen in the two + years I've been on this forum.
Kudos to all for explaining the "why" behind recon tactics instead of just "how to".
I look forward to Vejgaard's insights in the new tactics manual. Another excellent work...
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel
I dunno about getting rid of the horses! Dirty smelly critturs! And they bite too! Give me a dirty smelly tank that bites anyday! (grins)Originally posted by Vejgaard:
Greetings fellow cavalryman (a shame they got rid of the horses though <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ).
It is as you say, THE most commonly used recon tactic to pop smoke and bug out if you come under fire, but in some situations (in a fluid mobile situation, where you want your recon to be aggressive and brush aside light enemy (recon)resistance) you might have to make the decision to utilize your recon to fight the enemy, but as always it depends upon the situation.
The problem with sending infantry forward to scout is that while they are better at spotting and staying unspotted themselves, they are not that fast and if time is the issue, you might not be able to afford to use the time needed for a proper recon on foot.
As for dismounting vehicle crew, it would be a nice touch if you could dismount individual crewmembers (say the tc or the loader) in order to send them forward on foot <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It might be outside the capabilities of SPWaW, but perhaps it could be incorporated into Combat Leader <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> .
as for the doing the "Chickenhawk" believe me ivé been there more times than I care to mention <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. We were trained to be the main weapon against teh enemy recon screen too. It's the age old tactic. The skirmishers have their own little fight as a warm up to the main fight. My point was, that unless it was us doing the shooting first, then it was hit that reverse gear. Fast! If there was an Olymic event for backward tank driving I'd bet I'd have been up for gold(grins), a Scorpion has a LOT of backward gears, and I could use them all!
Perhaps an idea for CL. Is to let recon units dismount crew into an adjacent hex to the vehicle. So long as they stay in that hex they can remount automatically when you need to move them, and if destroyed by the enemy, the vehicle looses say half it's crew, or if you want to be nasty, the vehicle even classes as abandoned. It'd be nice to reflect this ability to an extent, bacause it was, and still is a standered tactic of armoured recon units. It's often more then desirable to sneek in a couple of men, then a 'dirty, smelly tank or armoured car, even if they do bite'! (grins)
In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.
Many scout AFV's can carry 2-4 infantry, which is fine for a scout team or two...rather than dismounting the crew simply unload the team.
Unfortunately, they can suffer if the scout vehicle is hit by small arms, but they usually survive...if the scout vehicle then retreats you can often leave the scout team behind, where they are in position to spot the firing unit next turn or next attempt (if suppression can be reduced). Similarly, if the scout vehicle is knocked out by that first shot, then the scout team remains in position.
Experience has taught me that an effective scout force starts at about 300 points (a platoon of Motorcycle or cavalry scouts, a platoon of Armoured cars or the like, and a some scout teams). Unfortunately, with a scout component this size, just a few casualties can significantly reduce its effectiveness, and wipe out its availabily/effectiveness as a mobile reserve.
I feel I can only afford this when my purchase points exceed 3000 points... and 10% of force is my general rule (below this a platoon or ACs become a section, etc). I tend to play at less than the recommended force ratios of 2:1 and 3:1...and if I were to play with 15% scout and 15% artillery, my core attack force value in an advance would be about the same size as the defenders.
3000 points may not seem much, but even in a battle where the opponent has around 1500 points...the unit density on the map is still too high to allow for effective tactical reconnaisance as described here. If the visibility is 15 hexes or higher, well placed AT-guns and mg's can create cross fires that cover most of the map...and I'd expect to run our of scout vehicles before I found a weakness in the defence to exploit.
In a 6000 point battle, in which losses within a balanced scout force can be afforded, on a large map the enemy unit density if so high that he can maintain virtually a solid defense line ...the only place they can't is on a 240X120 map...but it is a rare PBEM game that ventures there.
In addition, the map depth is 120 hexes constrains once ability to manouvre in depth in preparation for an attack...that is unless vis is set to less than 20 hexes...rear area manouvres called for by effective reconnaissance could be observed by the opponent and so lose surprise...isn't the purpose or recon to identify the weak points that can be exploited?
Additionally, isn't tactical reconnaissance achieved before well ahead of an attack and used to achieve where the attack will go ahead...that is it occurs before the battle in SPWAW.
Thus SPWAW really portrays battlefield reconnaissance. In a "real world" situation there aren't enough units to position something every 50 metres (which is the case in a common SPWAW force 120 unit force). If such a density had been observed (as it certainly woud before a battle) reconnaisance probes would be used on either side of it...that is off the SPWAW map.
What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines.
To create an effective recon scenario, I would say a 240X120 would have to be used with custom map with point-per-turn VH's and a strict rules on force make-up.
Unfortunately, they can suffer if the scout vehicle is hit by small arms, but they usually survive...if the scout vehicle then retreats you can often leave the scout team behind, where they are in position to spot the firing unit next turn or next attempt (if suppression can be reduced). Similarly, if the scout vehicle is knocked out by that first shot, then the scout team remains in position.
Experience has taught me that an effective scout force starts at about 300 points (a platoon of Motorcycle or cavalry scouts, a platoon of Armoured cars or the like, and a some scout teams). Unfortunately, with a scout component this size, just a few casualties can significantly reduce its effectiveness, and wipe out its availabily/effectiveness as a mobile reserve.
I feel I can only afford this when my purchase points exceed 3000 points... and 10% of force is my general rule (below this a platoon or ACs become a section, etc). I tend to play at less than the recommended force ratios of 2:1 and 3:1...and if I were to play with 15% scout and 15% artillery, my core attack force value in an advance would be about the same size as the defenders.
3000 points may not seem much, but even in a battle where the opponent has around 1500 points...the unit density on the map is still too high to allow for effective tactical reconnaisance as described here. If the visibility is 15 hexes or higher, well placed AT-guns and mg's can create cross fires that cover most of the map...and I'd expect to run our of scout vehicles before I found a weakness in the defence to exploit.
In a 6000 point battle, in which losses within a balanced scout force can be afforded, on a large map the enemy unit density if so high that he can maintain virtually a solid defense line ...the only place they can't is on a 240X120 map...but it is a rare PBEM game that ventures there.
In addition, the map depth is 120 hexes constrains once ability to manouvre in depth in preparation for an attack...that is unless vis is set to less than 20 hexes...rear area manouvres called for by effective reconnaissance could be observed by the opponent and so lose surprise...isn't the purpose or recon to identify the weak points that can be exploited?
Additionally, isn't tactical reconnaissance achieved before well ahead of an attack and used to achieve where the attack will go ahead...that is it occurs before the battle in SPWAW.
Thus SPWAW really portrays battlefield reconnaissance. In a "real world" situation there aren't enough units to position something every 50 metres (which is the case in a common SPWAW force 120 unit force). If such a density had been observed (as it certainly woud before a battle) reconnaisance probes would be used on either side of it...that is off the SPWAW map.
What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines.
To create an effective recon scenario, I would say a 240X120 would have to be used with custom map with point-per-turn VH's and a strict rules on force make-up.