That´s a good idea...though you´d have to have a net connection for that (well let´s face it; who doesn´t these days <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> although the cd version might be an alternative for it...
About hacking the code... what do you mean "idiot"? I don´t think you can be an idiot if you´re a competent hacker.
Perhaps you meant "unlawful" <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
And besides the hackers and pirates will get the game in one form or another if they want it, and releasing the game on a cd is the surest way to ensure it will get pirated.
I´m sure that even these niche labor of love wargames will get leeched by pirates, even europeans, while we who´d like to support Matrix watch enviously....
Mega Campaigns as ESDs?
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Scorpion_sk
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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Talking of Pirates
I am sad to report I have already witnessed Mega Campaign as pirated.
Seems we are not so niche that we are invisible.
Dealing in old style play em on the table games, at least I know that, that hobby is almost immune to hackers.
Well I guess someone could scan all the materials or photocopy them. But I can assure you that buying the game is a great deal more likely than printing and making ones own set of 10,000 or so counters for the average wargame.
I get a bit sad seeing my wargames sit on the shelf some days, but I know they get played a bit, and each playing is pure gold (because I cant complain about my oponents AI level hehe).
I am sad to report I have already witnessed Mega Campaign as pirated.
Seems we are not so niche that we are invisible.
Dealing in old style play em on the table games, at least I know that, that hobby is almost immune to hackers.
Well I guess someone could scan all the materials or photocopy them. But I can assure you that buying the game is a great deal more likely than printing and making ones own set of 10,000 or so counters for the average wargame.
I get a bit sad seeing my wargames sit on the shelf some days, but I know they get played a bit, and each playing is pure gold (because I cant complain about my oponents AI level hehe).
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Here are my thoughts as an old Tightwad and as an independent gamer.
The average price of a wargame now in the southeastern United States unless old and forgotten, averages $50-60 with taxes.
I know this because I had to take a part-time job, in spite of being retired from my work of 23 years, now in an electronics specialty department of a big store chain. I have to do this to make ends meet. I see the price of gaming software every day.
Mega Campaign offers the latest version of the SPWAW game with all improvements at no charge.
If also offers anywhere from 50-200 scenarios bonded into a long campaign, hundreds of pictures and articles (some good history lessons), great music, and more.
It represents thousands of hard-worked man hours for fellow gamers. Many of these (Richard, I said many...not all) receive nothing more than accoolades for their work and recognition for being part of a great team.
Most of the team, though they receive a free CD for their work, still purchase one to support Matrix. Now THAT, my friends, is REAL loyalty and support.
For anything less than $40 bucks total, I think it is a pretty good deal.
I've often paid more and gotten a lot less.
I'm NOT a part of the Matrix organization. I am now a part of the gaming community. 95% of the work I have done in the gaming community over the last eight years has been gratis.
Every rare once in awhile I have received something for my work, but very rarely. Usually reduced to hours of work for what was received, I was making about ten-twenty cents an hour if that much.
So when I shop, I look for bargains. In my book, even with inordinate postage costs, it is a bargain.
That is my opinion as an independent retired penny-pinching old wargamer.
Wild Bill
The average price of a wargame now in the southeastern United States unless old and forgotten, averages $50-60 with taxes.
I know this because I had to take a part-time job, in spite of being retired from my work of 23 years, now in an electronics specialty department of a big store chain. I have to do this to make ends meet. I see the price of gaming software every day.
Mega Campaign offers the latest version of the SPWAW game with all improvements at no charge.
If also offers anywhere from 50-200 scenarios bonded into a long campaign, hundreds of pictures and articles (some good history lessons), great music, and more.
It represents thousands of hard-worked man hours for fellow gamers. Many of these (Richard, I said many...not all) receive nothing more than accoolades for their work and recognition for being part of a great team.
Most of the team, though they receive a free CD for their work, still purchase one to support Matrix. Now THAT, my friends, is REAL loyalty and support.
For anything less than $40 bucks total, I think it is a pretty good deal.
I've often paid more and gotten a lot less.
I'm NOT a part of the Matrix organization. I am now a part of the gaming community. 95% of the work I have done in the gaming community over the last eight years has been gratis.
Every rare once in awhile I have received something for my work, but very rarely. Usually reduced to hours of work for what was received, I was making about ten-twenty cents an hour if that much.
So when I shop, I look for bargains. In my book, even with inordinate postage costs, it is a bargain.
That is my opinion as an independent retired penny-pinching old wargamer.
Wild Bill
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
Idiot = My personal definition of someone who has not figured out the idea that if you make a pirate copy of a great game, it will lead to that other great games will be much more expensive or not even constructed in the future. This includes both hackers and other "less active" pirates just supporting the hacker. Strong words.. but I really do find it bad.
Bill, the price is a bargain, if we get to pay the price and not the price*2. I wouldn't hesitate buying it for the listed price any day..
Bill, the price is a bargain, if we get to pay the price and not the price*2. I wouldn't hesitate buying it for the listed price any day..
Originally posted by Scorpion_sk:
That´s a good idea...though you´d have to have a net connection for that (well let´s face it; who doesn´t these days <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> although the cd version might be an alternative for it...
About hacking the code... what do you mean "idiot"? I don´t think you can be an idiot if you´re a competent hacker.
Perhaps you meant "unlawful" <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
And besides the hackers and pirates will get the game in one form or another if they want it, and releasing the game on a cd is the surest way to ensure it will get pirated.
I´m sure that even these niche labor of love wargames will get leeched by pirates, even europeans, while we who´d like to support Matrix watch enviously....
"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Perhaps the saddest reality, is that the world could be run smoothly, efficiently, and without any form of currency, market, or means of selling whatsoever.
Of course that is Utopian and merely a dream world vision. Humans are still a petty, squabbling, self-interest motivated, materialistic species.
Its why we fight over scraps of land which is idiotic (as the aboriginies of Australia would say, like fleas fighting over who owns the dog). Its why we exploit the world knowing full well that some day we will pay for our ignorance.
And of course it explains why hackers will never care that they make games more expensive, because they never intended to pay before and likely wont in the future.
It explains why I never mentioned where I saw the pirated software as well. Glad I forgot where I saw it as well.
Of course that is Utopian and merely a dream world vision. Humans are still a petty, squabbling, self-interest motivated, materialistic species.
Its why we fight over scraps of land which is idiotic (as the aboriginies of Australia would say, like fleas fighting over who owns the dog). Its why we exploit the world knowing full well that some day we will pay for our ignorance.
And of course it explains why hackers will never care that they make games more expensive, because they never intended to pay before and likely wont in the future.
It explains why I never mentioned where I saw the pirated software as well. Glad I forgot where I saw it as well.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Scorpion_sk
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Finland
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Wild Bill...
I appreciate what you said but we already have the main game for free...sure if the extra money we pay would go to Matrix it´d be a different thing...
The MCs (especially LV it seems with it s hundreds of scenarios, in fact so many that I am wondering why the next one, as great as it will be, "only" has 70. I guess they are really epic scenarios; No it´s not a problem of MC:W having little, rather LV having oodles).
Now, as for the original idea of offering electronic software downloads of the MCs (like the main game is now (for free) and Firefight) with Payment by credit card and PayPal....
Matrix,
I still haven´t heard the reason why this is not possible. I´m sure bandwidth is not free, but in comparison to making a copy of the game (with boxes etc.) and shipping it overseas the costs pale in comparison.
Hell, you could even charge a dollar or three more for the ESD customers as far as I´m concerned, the money goes to Matrix anyway.
Now, as for interrupted downloads...You will just have to try offering to send the game again.
IMPORTANT: this method would be at the customer´s risk, NO reimbursements would be possible.
With this system, no-one would falsely claim that his download did not succeed.
Those whose DLs did not succeed would get to download again.
Regards, Sami
I appreciate what you said but we already have the main game for free...sure if the extra money we pay would go to Matrix it´d be a different thing...
The MCs (especially LV it seems with it s hundreds of scenarios, in fact so many that I am wondering why the next one, as great as it will be, "only" has 70. I guess they are really epic scenarios; No it´s not a problem of MC:W having little, rather LV having oodles).
Now, as for the original idea of offering electronic software downloads of the MCs (like the main game is now (for free) and Firefight) with Payment by credit card and PayPal....
Matrix,
I still haven´t heard the reason why this is not possible. I´m sure bandwidth is not free, but in comparison to making a copy of the game (with boxes etc.) and shipping it overseas the costs pale in comparison.
Hell, you could even charge a dollar or three more for the ESD customers as far as I´m concerned, the money goes to Matrix anyway.
Now, as for interrupted downloads...You will just have to try offering to send the game again.
IMPORTANT: this method would be at the customer´s risk, NO reimbursements would be possible.
With this system, no-one would falsely claim that his download did not succeed.
Those whose DLs did not succeed would get to download again.
Regards, Sami
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
I do not "KNOW" this to be the case, can only say that I have seen what I have seen and heard what I have heard.
Myself personally, if I had a game (or any other piece of software) I would be quite leary of trying to sell it as a download.
I have downloaded successfully many files in my time. But always I have known, if it snags or fails or is in any way corrupted or damaged, well its a simple matter to just download it again.
Now I dont know that there is any reason to worry. But I DO in fact know, that there is no one on this planet that is safe from hackers, period. Would Matrix be safe in servicing a public with their bread and butter product electronically? Hard to say. In their place I wouldnt do it myself.
Secure can mean one of two things I guess. Secure as in the files will be sent in a way that no one will be able to see your credit card info. Or secure in that the files will arrive reliably and intact.
In both cases I happen to know that "shit" happens. And I dont think Matrix wants to play with that variable (or at least I wouldnt). They would have to go the route of investing in the needed software to make it all work (maybe thats a bridge they cant cross right now).
Steel Panthers is currently a free to download till you are blue in the face. With Getright, there is virtually no reason to complain if you get a faulty download (just do it again).
But to make a deliberate functional downloadable copy of software that is being marketed commercially? Sorry guys but there are limits. If it was my product on the line, I wouldnt be doing the pirates any favours at all. One copy is all they need, just one copy. And tomorrow your product is just another file on a file sharing program. Encryption? not going to even waste time on that issue. I have seen to much hardware that makes cracking software really a joke.
Heck my only reason for not playing 98% of the software out there, and for nothing more than the cost of a blank cd, is that 98% of the games on the shelves are boring renditions of the same damn thing.
Hohum yawn run around kill kill kill, get xp's go up a level kill kill kill oh look a new game where I get to run around killing. Graphics change, the setting looks different, but hey my pixel guy wasting the hell out of everything in sight, been there, done that, boring.
Where is the connection with Steel Panthers in all that. SPWaW gives me a game where many people have worked to make a design as accurate to a real event as is realistically possible. I dont want to replace SP, I dont need a new game so much. I like the idea of the Mega Campaign cds. like the idea of products that further evolve a proven product (guess thats why I own 2000+$ worth of ASL game products).
I might like Combat Leader or whatever else comes along. Its not unreasonable to assume it will be a fine game. I will need a great deal of convincing to say good bye to SP though. Alas this line of thinking isnt ideal for a company that is trying to make a buck. But unlike most of my friends (a lot of them younguns) I am not in love with buying each software offering that hits the shelves (merely because it is new).
HMMM I think I was supposed to be talking about ESD. I will reiterate (or perhaps try to get back on topic). I dont see it worthy of Matrix's time to indulge in an electronically delivered product. Its not whether is is "physically" possible, its whether it is "logically" possible that counts.
Myself personally, if I had a game (or any other piece of software) I would be quite leary of trying to sell it as a download.
I have downloaded successfully many files in my time. But always I have known, if it snags or fails or is in any way corrupted or damaged, well its a simple matter to just download it again.
Now I dont know that there is any reason to worry. But I DO in fact know, that there is no one on this planet that is safe from hackers, period. Would Matrix be safe in servicing a public with their bread and butter product electronically? Hard to say. In their place I wouldnt do it myself.
Secure can mean one of two things I guess. Secure as in the files will be sent in a way that no one will be able to see your credit card info. Or secure in that the files will arrive reliably and intact.
In both cases I happen to know that "shit" happens. And I dont think Matrix wants to play with that variable (or at least I wouldnt). They would have to go the route of investing in the needed software to make it all work (maybe thats a bridge they cant cross right now).
Steel Panthers is currently a free to download till you are blue in the face. With Getright, there is virtually no reason to complain if you get a faulty download (just do it again).
But to make a deliberate functional downloadable copy of software that is being marketed commercially? Sorry guys but there are limits. If it was my product on the line, I wouldnt be doing the pirates any favours at all. One copy is all they need, just one copy. And tomorrow your product is just another file on a file sharing program. Encryption? not going to even waste time on that issue. I have seen to much hardware that makes cracking software really a joke.
Heck my only reason for not playing 98% of the software out there, and for nothing more than the cost of a blank cd, is that 98% of the games on the shelves are boring renditions of the same damn thing.
Hohum yawn run around kill kill kill, get xp's go up a level kill kill kill oh look a new game where I get to run around killing. Graphics change, the setting looks different, but hey my pixel guy wasting the hell out of everything in sight, been there, done that, boring.
Where is the connection with Steel Panthers in all that. SPWaW gives me a game where many people have worked to make a design as accurate to a real event as is realistically possible. I dont want to replace SP, I dont need a new game so much. I like the idea of the Mega Campaign cds. like the idea of products that further evolve a proven product (guess thats why I own 2000+$ worth of ASL game products).
I might like Combat Leader or whatever else comes along. Its not unreasonable to assume it will be a fine game. I will need a great deal of convincing to say good bye to SP though. Alas this line of thinking isnt ideal for a company that is trying to make a buck. But unlike most of my friends (a lot of them younguns) I am not in love with buying each software offering that hits the shelves (merely because it is new).
HMMM I think I was supposed to be talking about ESD. I will reiterate (or perhaps try to get back on topic). I dont see it worthy of Matrix's time to indulge in an electronically delivered product. Its not whether is is "physically" possible, its whether it is "logically" possible that counts.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Scorpion_sk
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Finland
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*Sigh*
Well, I guess Matrix should stop selling Firefight as an ESD before it can say that it doesn´t want to sell ESDs.
As for the credit card issue....how on earth does this differ from ordering a physical product?
If I ordered the game now, as a box, I´d still use my credit card (albeit via PayPal) to pay for it.
As for the "file arrives safely"-issue, well, yes shite happens, but no-one would be demanding a new download unless his download was broken. And from personal experience this doesn´t happen often enough to warrant making it a "biggie". Sure, it´s like the "attrition" in a candy store but in this case it´s quite insignificant imho.
As for the pirating issue, how on earth does offering the game as an ESD (while possibly selling the individual code to get the game working) make it any easier for the pirates to pirate the game? As it is, anyone can order a copy, make an iso out of it and voilà. Exactly the same end result.
It´s very difficult to fight the pirates.
Besides, I don´t think this kind of a product (the MCs) hold that much interest to the pirating masses.
Well, I guess Matrix should stop selling Firefight as an ESD before it can say that it doesn´t want to sell ESDs.
As for the credit card issue....how on earth does this differ from ordering a physical product?
If I ordered the game now, as a box, I´d still use my credit card (albeit via PayPal) to pay for it.
As for the "file arrives safely"-issue, well, yes shite happens, but no-one would be demanding a new download unless his download was broken. And from personal experience this doesn´t happen often enough to warrant making it a "biggie". Sure, it´s like the "attrition" in a candy store but in this case it´s quite insignificant imho.
As for the pirating issue, how on earth does offering the game as an ESD (while possibly selling the individual code to get the game working) make it any easier for the pirates to pirate the game? As it is, anyone can order a copy, make an iso out of it and voilà. Exactly the same end result.
It´s very difficult to fight the pirates.
Besides, I don´t think this kind of a product (the MCs) hold that much interest to the pirating masses.
There are many ways of offering a downloadable program for sale instead of shipping it physically and still do it fairly safe.
1. Make the MC's as free downloads, but password protected.
2. Once the customer has downloaded the MC, he/she will pay for it with credit cards or whatever.
3. Once Matrix receives the money, it sends a password to the customer by e-mail (or even by snail mail if deemed safer!).
4. Customer plugs in the password, thus registering the MC with Matrix. Game is on.
Quick and "easy" procedure for both Matrix and customer. For pirates, there will be pirating no matter if the copy of the game is downloadable or on physical discs (as someone also wrote before).
What all software programs earn money on are the honest customers. We wargamers are a fairly mature audience in comparison with many other games, which (in my slightly biased opinion) makes us more honest as well. You would earn more money on this in the long run from including more customers in Europe and elsewhere.
It all comes down to basic market laws. A low price will let you sell many games. A high price will give you fewer customers (a 100% higher price makes a great difference here). If the price difference for the higher price completely ends up as fees to some freight company, your company will have the same earnings per sold game, but with a much smaller volume of sold games.... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
As Sami, I would out of interest want to hear why "electronic sales" are worse?
1. Make the MC's as free downloads, but password protected.
2. Once the customer has downloaded the MC, he/she will pay for it with credit cards or whatever.
3. Once Matrix receives the money, it sends a password to the customer by e-mail (or even by snail mail if deemed safer!).
4. Customer plugs in the password, thus registering the MC with Matrix. Game is on.
Quick and "easy" procedure for both Matrix and customer. For pirates, there will be pirating no matter if the copy of the game is downloadable or on physical discs (as someone also wrote before).
What all software programs earn money on are the honest customers. We wargamers are a fairly mature audience in comparison with many other games, which (in my slightly biased opinion) makes us more honest as well. You would earn more money on this in the long run from including more customers in Europe and elsewhere.
It all comes down to basic market laws. A low price will let you sell many games. A high price will give you fewer customers (a 100% higher price makes a great difference here). If the price difference for the higher price completely ends up as fees to some freight company, your company will have the same earnings per sold game, but with a much smaller volume of sold games.... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
As Sami, I would out of interest want to hear why "electronic sales" are worse?
"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.
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Scorpion_sk
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Matrix is already over burdened by what they're trying to accomplish. Let's try and come up with some solutions that don't involve them doing anything. Is the combined cost for the MC CD to be sent to me and then send it to someone in Portugal (oh! please dont flame me for saying Portugal! just kidding, lol.) less than the cost of shipping it through Matrix? If so, then there are a lot of very generous and kind individuals who'd be more than willing to help. I've been on the recieving end of this fantastic phenomenon, when someone sent me a SPWAW CD free of charge because I was having difficulty D/Ling the game.
There should be less wanking and more solution searching.
Tomo
There should be less wanking and more solution searching.
Tomo
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Scorpion_sk
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You know, that´s true...
Once upon a time I was bereft of the good ol´ game that is Panzer General.
A very kind individual and an old CC2-buddy picked a copy up from the bargain bin and when I didn´t have any good means for paying (only very expensive ones) he just sent me the game free of charge....
Of course with hindsight I could have mailed him the money, but everyone advised against it back then.
It just might be that Americans are at least a bit more kind in general than the average finn...
Anyway yes I think that doing this might save 10 bucks or so.
However, should the package be caught by customs, then it´s a different matter....
You should bear in mind when looking at the cost of Fedex that it includes all these taxes and duties (which in Finland would be 22% VAT and a couple %:S tariff not to mention that the package has to be picked up at customs which isn´t exactly next door to anyone).
I can only see the ESDs as as a way out of this costly mess...
The bottom line is, if Matrix wants to "play it big" as someone mentioned and serve grognards globally (expand their market) they need to make a stand here. If they´re swamped, an outside professional can help with IT solutions (However as we know it isn´t cheap, lucky for us ((future IT folks)).
However, if Matrix wants to mainly serve North Americans, then it isn´t their hassle to do anything more for non-Americans.
Their choice...I´d like to know what it is.
Once upon a time I was bereft of the good ol´ game that is Panzer General.
A very kind individual and an old CC2-buddy picked a copy up from the bargain bin and when I didn´t have any good means for paying (only very expensive ones) he just sent me the game free of charge....
Of course with hindsight I could have mailed him the money, but everyone advised against it back then.
It just might be that Americans are at least a bit more kind in general than the average finn...
Anyway yes I think that doing this might save 10 bucks or so.
However, should the package be caught by customs, then it´s a different matter....
You should bear in mind when looking at the cost of Fedex that it includes all these taxes and duties (which in Finland would be 22% VAT and a couple %:S tariff not to mention that the package has to be picked up at customs which isn´t exactly next door to anyone).
I can only see the ESDs as as a way out of this costly mess...
The bottom line is, if Matrix wants to "play it big" as someone mentioned and serve grognards globally (expand their market) they need to make a stand here. If they´re swamped, an outside professional can help with IT solutions (However as we know it isn´t cheap, lucky for us ((future IT folks)).
However, if Matrix wants to mainly serve North Americans, then it isn´t their hassle to do anything more for non-Americans.
Their choice...I´d like to know what it is.
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K G von Martinez
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- Location: Hannover, Germany
Scorpion, are you sure that UPS/Fedex rates include the European taxes? May be I got it wrong, but as far as I understood they are including the procedure at the customs, but not any tax-amounts due <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . Well, if you are living out in the tundra it should nonetheless be worth a lot of money if you don't have to go to the nearest customs office <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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David Heath
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Scorpion_sk
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