Things I do not like about 8.2

[Hunpecked]

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians.

Let me see if I understand exactly what Bryan has written here. To offset a perceived historical inaccuracy in the game (low Polish national characteristics), he deliberately introduced ANOTHER inaccuracy (fantasy value for Polish ATR)? [&:]

Please tell me I've misunderstood him!

[FlashfyreSP]

The low national characteristic is not perceived, it exists. Whether it's right or wrong is immaterial to the issue of the Polish ATR weapon.

Some facts about the weapon and unit statistics (which really haven't been stated so far):
The Polish ATR unit has an FC of 3. According to the manual, this adds 15 to the accuracy (5xFC rating). The British ATR unit also has this FC rating. Most other ATR units have FC ratings of 2.

The ATR weapon has an AP Pen of 38; the same as the German PzKpfw IIc, and less than the PzKpfw IVc or PzKpfw IIIe, all of which the Polish would face in 1939. It's Accuracy is 28. Claims that it has a higher Pen value than German guns are mistaken.

It also has an APCR rating of 42; this is less than the APCR rating of the PzKpfw IIc, which has a 74. THIS IS THE ONLY ATR THAT HAS THIS RATING.

The Russian PTRD ATR has an AP Pen of 37 and it's Accuracy is also 28.

The British Boys ATR has an AP Pen of 26 and an Accuracy of 20 (the worst of the ATRs).

The Hotchkiss ATR has an AP Pen of 31 and an Accuracy of 24.

The Solothurn ATR has an AP Pen of 32 and an Accuracy of 32.

As can be seen, the Polish ATR has the same Accuracy as the Russian weapon, and a lower one than the Solothurn. It's AP Pen value is the highest, beating the Russian weapon by 1 point. The only significant difference is the APCR rating of the Polish weapon; the reasons for giving it one have been explained previously in this thread.

As I stated before, I have done a test with this weapon, and cannot produce a kill against German medium and support tanks. And it takes a number of hits to kill the light versions. Penetrations do occur, but with little effect; no damage is done.

[BryanMelvin]

ORIGINAL: Hunpecked

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

I gave it an extra kick (FC 3) to help balance the low national characteristics that SPwaw gives 1939 era Polish Infantry so that the Poles in the spwaw have a chance to against the Germans and Russians.

Let me see if I understand exactly what Bryan has written here. To offset a perceived historical inaccuracy in the game (low Polish national characteristics), he deliberately introduced ANOTHER inaccuracy (fantasy value for Polish ATR)? [&:]

Please tell me I've misunderstood him!

Let me try to state one more time: this was the only unit in the entire set of oobs was adjusted to help a Nation due to poor spwaw NC's. This unit end date is 1939 and has little effect in entire game. How many gamers play against the 1939 Poles verse the Computer or PBEM? I am not sure? Does anyone have a guess?

If anyone does not like this - they can adjust their own Polish OOB's and swap them around and no problem. Also, note that this unit has a rarity of two which limits its purchase for spwaw games. Heck, a player may not be able to purchase these at all or run accross them.

The best way to play a campaign/battle type game is to have Perference setting "True troop Cost/Rarity" set to ON. This was how spwaw was meant to be played but many do not like this feature. With this setting set to On - it really helps the game but again, this feature is an option one can use or not.

All I ask is that people do not judge the entire game by one unit used is 1939 and no where else.

I do ask, play the game and enjoy.

Also note any things that slipped through the cracks. If everyone hates the FC of three - this can be changed viva true update. No problem..

[FlashfyreSP]

I think there is a misunderstanding about the Fire Control rating: it only affects the ACCURACY (how often the unit hits a target with the weapon), not the PENETRATION, which determines damage/kill results. Changing the FC down will only lessen the number of hits, not whether it kills the target, regardless of the range. If it's an issue over the number of kills the weapon gets, then change the APCR Penetration rating, because this is what's different from all the other ATRs in the game.

[Belisarius]

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet
The amount of smoke that infantry pop.Used to only occur when you cranked up the ai level, now happens all the time.

Are you kidding me, bulletmagnet?

In 8.01 (and ALL previous versions), infantry and crew popped smoke like there was nothing else to do! I usually, when routing an enemy squad, end up with smoke trail 5 or 6 hexes long. All. The. Time.

If nothing else, I noticed that infantry (and more importantly CREWS) pop LESS smoke now.

[Losqualo]

I second that. Gone are the days when you could make your oponent lay a smoke screen for you. [8|]

[Hunpecked]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

The low national characteristic is not perceived, it exists. Whether it's right or wrong is immaterial to the issue of the Polish ATR weapon.

Fact: 1939 Polish national characteristics (NC) are low compared to 1939 Germans.
Perception: 1939 Polish NC are ahistorically low compared to 1939 Germans.

I used the term "perceived" because at some time someone set Polish NC to the current level, presumably in the belief that they were historically accurate. Also, BulletMagnet seems to agree with the "low" Polish NC, so opinion is not unanimous even today. BTW, I disagree with BulletMagnet and agree with Bryan on this point, but that's another post. [:D]

As for the "rightness" of the NC, it IS relevant to the extent that perceived "wrongness" leads a game designer to compensate by making a game adjustment he thinks is otherwise ahistorical.

Some facts about the weapon and unit statistics...[blah blah].

My thanks to FlashfyreSP for compiling the data. My concern, however, is that Bryan apparently adjusted the ATR FC for play balance and not historical performance. [:(] In an earlier post he claimed the Polish ATR actually WAS an unusually effective weapon (though Orzel Bialy seems to disagree), but since then has twice stated that the FC adjustment was for play balance.

[Hunpecked]

ORIGINAL: BryanMelvin

Let me try to state one more time: this was the only unit in the entire set of oobs was adjusted to help a Nation due to poor spwaw NC's. This unit end date is 1939 and has little effect in entire game. [snip]. Also, note that this unit has a rarity of two which limits its purchase for spwaw games. Heck, a player may not be able to purchase these at all or run across them.

So in other words, "This is important enough to introduce an ahistorical weapon rating, but don't worry because it's not big enough to offset the National Characteristics problem anyway and besides it will only affect a few people and furthermore even they will hardly ever suffer/benefit from it and oh yeah you have to have the really BAD National Characteristics set to ON otherwise the Poles get an ahistorical advantage but only rarely and..." [:D]

Now I respect and admire Bryan for his contributions to one of my favorite games of all time, but might I suggest that in this particular case his good intentions have led him just a wee bit astray? [:)]

[Hunpecked]

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

The polish did not put up this fantasic resistance your talking about. Look up the word Blitzkrieg. That is not used for a army bogged down by someone putting up a reliable defense. [snip] All of the early war, well documented the Germans ruled the battlefield, ask yourself why not in 8.2?

From what I've read, the Poles were beaten so quickly for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with their performance at the SPWAW level: (1) Their forward deployment ("defend everything") left them vulnerable to encirclement (2) Their air force was greatly outclassed by the Luftwaffe (3) They had few mechanized units (4) They were outnumbered, especially when you consider that (5) They were attacked by the two largest armies in the world.

In other words, a higher National Characteristics level in SPWAW (tactical level) wouldn't preclude a devastating defeat at the strategic level. When facing comparable forces in a stand-up fight, the Poles could and did give the Germans a tough battle (e.g. the Polish counterattack at the Bzura river).

I wish that Matrix had just bit the bullet and fixed the Polish National Characteristics, or if that was too difficult, posted suggested corrections for players to implement themselves. Either would be preferable to fudging the data for one(!) weapon. [8|]

[Orzel Bialy]

I agree with the idea that the National Characteristic value should have been tweaked instead...but I think that would have required a program modification instead of anything the OoB team had access to.

I have played the Poles on several long campaigns (yes a glutton for punishment you might say) and have seen the majority of my units start out with values that were quite a ways from the listed "average" range.

Made for some were dicey survival at times. [X(]

[BulletMagnet]

Im sorry Noone is able to reproduce the results. I play a long camp once a month. I admit I play extremely agressive against the AI. The difference in 8.2 is the amount of brew ups I see against the poles. I wouldnt mind seeing tracks and other damage shots. But come on, how hard it must be to brew up a Pz Ivc barreling straight at you from 400 meters through smoke no less!!!! My entire assault comes to a crawl in open terrain all because of some atr's. The computer also does some other stupid crap now it takes every side shot it possibly can even if it crisscrosses the map. It ignores units right in front. In table top wargaming its called "Cheesing" in spwaw its called BS. I dont want anyone to think I hate the game or whatnot my intenton is just to show an observation, nothing personal against anyone. I think I am going to reduce the pen rates to 7.1

[KG Erwin]

The AI choices were beefed up for several nations, so if you guys are wailing and gnashing teeth about the Poles, then we did our job. [:D] You wanted a challenge against the AI, and now we gave it to you.

The same goes for other nations--the Japanese have tank-killer units that give me fits in close terrain. What we've done is essentially put Steel Panthers in its place. The proper title of this game now should simply be: "The World at War 1930-1949. "

I love it, but it also makes me furious and frustrated at times. Isn't this what a great wargame should do?

What we did is to accent the importance of combined arms--the proper application of this is what won battles in WWII. Steel Panthers is just an advanced example of the rock-scissors-paper approach. This is how it worked in real life, so you guys should have to deal with it, too.

[KG Erwin]

As for the sharpshooting Polish Infantry ATR teams, it has been suggested that their FC be reduced to 2. I would concur with this, so you guys can use the unit editor and make the changes.

[BryanMelvin]

Okay, after reading the complaints concerning the Polish ATR’s FC of three setting, I privately asked three volunteers to conduct test on this issue. The first set of test have been completed and I’ll list the results as follows:

Test used the Campaign Generator set to begin September 1939 and end September 1939 and consist of 5 battles. True Troop cost / rarity set to on, reduced and limited ammo setting was used. Reduced squads set to – Off. The first rounds of test were played from the German side verses the AI Polish side.

Test pending regarding playing with True Troop cost / rarity set to: Off. I need some more volunteers for this.

PBEM test are pending and feel free to volunteer for this. Just let me know and send me an email at bryanm@matrixgames.

Also, test from the Polish side verse the computer AI German side needs testing. If you like to volunteer for this, send me an email.

Here are the results of the first round of test:

German units used were a combined arms team consisting 1939 armor, Infantry, and mortars selected per likes of testers. True Troop cost / rarity set to on. On average, using Fred’s WAW editor to count, AI selected approximately 6 to 9 ATR’s per game or none at all.

The initial findings were that the German’s ran rough shod over the Polish forces and the ATR’s had no detrimental impact on game play. Instead, the ATR’s only fired long range about 45 percent of the time. Most damage caused by ATR’s was against Armored cars and PZ I’s. Majority of the crews survived when hit from 12 to 5 hexes. Polish ATR Fire from ranges of zero to three hexes proved most deadly. Polish ATR fire out to Four to five hex range produced varied results regarding losses. Majority of Tank loses from Polish ATR fire, PZ II, Cech Tanks, and PZ IIIe’s were in the Zero to 4 hex ranges, unless Poles had height advantages.

Approximate 45 percent of the ATR’s failed to Op fire at a two hex range and were easily destroyed after being spotted. When ATR’s did fire, units in over watch positions could fire “Z” key area fire and suppress the ATR teams, exposing them. Infantry units and scouts spotted ATR’s and used suppressing fire on these. Polish ATR teams proved brittle and can not take much suppression before routing.

ATR’s and Polish units fire OP fire at max range, thus exposing positions and easily neutralized. This AI fire, at max range is in the mechanics of the game.

These are results from the Human as German side one verses the Compter AI. For test to be complete, I still need volunteers to test from the Polish side verse the AI and any PBEM. I still need test result’s for True Troop cost / rarity set to off to be final.

Just from these initial tests, it appears the FC setting of three has no negative empirical effect on game but this is not the final analysis as test are not complete.

Please note, test volunteers wish to remain anonymous due a few negative attitudes displayed on forums.

If you like to join this test, email me at bryanm@matrixgames for more detials.

[BulletMagnet]

After doing some of my own testing and confering with Flashfire I have concluded that the problem is not with the FC of three.(although it compounds the issue) The problem exists with the over- inflated apcr pen. I hope the the intent of your own testing is not to be an "azz" or to make me look like one.You have already admitted to fudging the rating ahistorical to help the poles out, and you have in the past been accused of fudging other numbers for play balance. Its all just a game. But if you made a mistake please just admit and say "yeah maybe i shouldnt have cranked it up so high"

[BryanMelvin]

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

After doing some of my own testing and confering with Flashfire I have concluded that the problem is not with the FC of three.(although it compounds the issue) The problem exists with the over- inflated apcr pen. I hope the the intent of your own testing is not to be an "azz" or to make me look like one.You have already admitted to fudging the rating ahistorical to help the poles out, and you have in the past been accused of fudging other numbers for play balance. Its all just a game. But if you made a mistake please just admit and say "yeah maybe i shouldnt have cranked it up so high"

BulletMagnet - no intent on making anyone look like a azz. This needs an honest open evaluation before doing anything else. I am curious about the ATR and what it is doing in the game and nothing else.

The test on this is by no means conclusive and still more data needs to be collected. So far, the three reports I received state that the FC of three has no bearing making the game ahistortical but this only the first round of reports. More is needed - much more!

Things noticed by testers, so far, is that the AI likes to fire at max range setttings. This seems to be the case in all human vs spwaw AI play.

As for APCR rounds - this unit should not have any - only AP. It does have APCR pen rate but should have no ammo in unit apcr slot. The apcr was to be used as a scenario designer option and for many older spwaw scenarios that used apcr for this weapon. Many older scenarios do use apcr for this weapon and it would give it more of a kick. Reducing it would be the correct thing to do. Deleting apcr would harm older scenario work.

This is the only unit in entire oobs with the FC increase. It was done to help the 1939 era AI Polish force to be more of a challenge and make this era more realistic than what it was before. We will all see what the results of testing are before making final judgements concerning historical verse ahistorical. All I ask is a fair honest testing of this and see what the results are and then go from there: not to make anyone look like an azz. That is not my style.

Please keep your comments coming in and if you like - join on in the testing! You are very welcome to join in [:)]

Question: what were the settings used for your game? This would help sort things out too [8D]

You can send email to bryanm@matrixgames.com for privacy.

[STEELER13]

Yo Bryan,
First off, thanks to you and the team for the hard work put into updating the game.
Secondly, I do think that with the advent of ModSwapper, many of the OOB disagreements could be resolved by people who want to adjust and add much like PanzerLeo has done with the H2H. As I understand it, modswapper, allows for easy swapping of Modified OOB's.
BUT...what is missing and would make 8.2 complete in my opinion(at least enough so I can send out cd's to people who can't download 8.2 and have made donations) are the following:
1. Missing scenario dat and text files as pointed out by others.
2. Directions on using MODSWAPPER! Also, if I download H2H as is now, will it immediately work with Modswapper or do I need to follow a different procedure?
3. The 8.2 change text refers to a 3 MB document with complete changes.
4. The change file also refers to several of the new units missing LBM files which are "to be added later". Do you have an ETA on these?
5. David Heath mentioned that Civil War Mod and H2H would be posted on a Matrix website or at least given a link from Matrix.

That is what I would like to have on any CD I send out.
Also, just a quibble, as I mean no disrespect, but I can see why some people are dismayed by something you posted earlier. You admitted that the Polish ATR was adjusted for gameplay. I don't have a problem with that and actually I can see when sometimes there is a need to allow for gaming to take precedence over absolute historical accuracy. In fact, most people wouldn't want to play a game where 99% of the time you have no action, but in reality that would be historical accuracy, right?
BUT...I scoured the 8.2 change pdf and I didn't see mention of this adjustment or anything like this. Were there any other units that were similarly "touched up"? I ask because now you have me curious and because as a scenario designer I am going to wonder why certain outcomes are different than expected so I would certainly appreciate the information and the chance to adjust myself if I know something is "historically off".
Usually I stay out of OOB discussions and respect your changes without question. But, with Modswapper, now people can look at where you replaced historical accuracy to see if that really did do the trick. Why the ATR? Why not the Polish experience levels?Or another weapon entirely? Modswapper allows people to try their hands at it.
Just my own personal observations and requests. I state again I mean no disrespect at all, I completely respect the work you and your team have done. With modswapper I think that in a way Matrix can stop worrying about updating OOB's to meet everyone's needs, and instead allow those who disagree to come up with their own variations. Afterall, Matrix doesn't make SPWAW scenarios, aside from what is included in basic install and on the MC's---and as I understand it, there will be no more MC's in the near future if ever.
Thank you again.
Thank you!
Thank you![:)]

[BryanMelvin]

ORIGINAL: STEELER13

Yo Bryan,
First off, thanks to you and the team for the hard work put into updating the game.
Secondly, I do think that with the advent of ModSwapper, many of the OOB disagreements could be resolved by people who want to adjust and add much like PanzerLeo has done with the H2H. As I understand it, modswapper, allows for easy swapping of Modified OOB's.
BUT...what is missing and would make 8.2 complete in my opinion(at least enough so I can send out cd's to people who can't download 8.2 and have made donations) are the following:
1. Missing scenario dat and text files as pointed out by others.
2. Directions on using MODSWAPPER! Also, if I download H2H as is now, will it immediately work with Modswapper or do I need to follow a different procedure?
3. The 8.2 change text refers to a 3 MB document with complete changes.
4. The change file also refers to several of the new units missing LBM files which are "to be added later". Do you have an ETA on these?
5. David Heath mentioned that Civil War Mod and H2H would be posted on a Matrix website or at least given a link from Matrix.

That is what I would like to have on any CD I send out.
Also, just a quibble, as I mean no disrespect, but I can see why some people are dismayed by something you posted earlier. You admitted that the Polish ATR was adjusted for gameplay. I don't have a problem with that and actually I can see when sometimes there is a need to allow for gaming to take precedence over absolute historical accuracy. In fact, most people wouldn't want to play a game where 99% of the time you have no action, but in reality that would be historical accuracy, right?
BUT...I scoured the 8.2 change pdf and I didn't see mention of this adjustment or anything like this. Were there any other units that were similarly "touched up"? I ask because now you have me curious and because as a scenario designer I am going to wonder why certain outcomes are different than expected so I would certainly appreciate the information and the chance to adjust myself if I know something is "historically off".
Usually I stay out of OOB discussions and respect your changes without question. But, with Modswapper, now people can look at where you replaced historical accuracy to see if that really did do the trick. Why the ATR? Why not the Polish experience levels?Or another weapon entirely? Modswapper allows people to try their hands at it.
Just my own personal observations and requests. I state again I mean no disrespect at all, I completely respect the work you and your team have done. With modswapper I think that in a way Matrix can stop worrying about updating OOB's to meet everyone's needs, and instead allow those who disagree to come up with their own variations. Afterall, Matrix doesn't make SPWAW scenarios, aside from what is included in basic install and on the MC's---and as I understand it, there will be no more MC's in the near future if ever.
Thank you again.
Thank you!
Thank you![:)]

No other units were touched up in oobs to help a Nations side in the same manner that was used in that Polish ATR.

It does have an APCR pen rate but the unit should have no default APCR ammo in it. This was for scenario designers who want to add this ammo in to portray Heroic deeds in a scenario.

As soon as we have what is known as the "LUMF" excel file ready - we'll post it. This has all the info on it in detail on what was done in OOBs. This maybe what you are looking for. [:)]

As for experience rate increase - this in located inside the Mech.exe and left at the 7.1 levels.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

If the testing on the Polish ATR is correct then maybe its not powerful enough. Pens of 30+ mm at 300 yards, thats 6 hexes in the game. But the weapon only does well against a early modle Pz III at 4 hexes or less? What about spalling? If the crew were injured or incapcitated in some way, would that also not be a kill? I think maybe this is a non issue.

[BryanMelvin]

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay

If the testing on the Polish ATR is correct then maybe its not powerful enough. Pens of 30+ mm at 300 yards, thats 6 hexes in the game. But the weapon only does well against a early modle Pz III at 4 hexes or less? What about spalling? If the crew were injured or incapcitated in some way, would that also not be a kill? I think maybe this is a non issue.

True, but Bullet Magnet did locate an error and it has to do with Polish 1939 AI Unit selection for Battle and campaign games.

A fix to the AI selection will correct things so that the AI will select less Polish Armour and select a better Polish AI Assault force mix but this fix will work best when True Troop/Rarity is set to ON. I hope to have this completed after more testing is completed.

As for the ATR - I'll experiment with reducing pen rate to 30 for both AP and APCR.

Book sources for ATR were from Hogg's and Weeks - Military Small Arms of the World - 1977. Also - Anti Tank Weapons - by Chamberlain, Gardner, Macdonald, and Janes - 1974.

This weapon had a Pen rate of about 20 - 25mm at 300 Yards - sources vary as usual. Some sources had this rated at 38 to 32mm at 0 to 40 meters with its special ammo when used. I set it to the high end and lowering it should get things back in line. More testing will be needed to confrim if this works.