saddened by poor interface

[Bodhi]

Two things I'd like are

1. When you left click in a scrollbar, the data is advanced by one "page", i.e. the row just off the bottom is set at the top. Currently, the scrollbars jump to that point in the list. Not very handy when you're presented with very long lists.

2. A way to filter some of the lists by designated command of the unit/base, as some of the naval lists are by ship type.

I have to agree that I feel the interface could be better, but have played UV I'm used to it and it is possible tp lay the game with the current interface. I remember thinking how "ungainly" it was back then. Hope 3by2 come up with something more user-friendly in future games.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Which pages are without content? If you find a broken link then please report it to the webmaster.

Can't figure out how to do that from the WitP site as I couldn't find any link to the webmaster. [;)] So I posted here about most of the "links" being dead. David Heath replied so I assume he's forwarded to whoever's responsible.

One thing that would be useful on the site is that when you click on a new link from the left hand menu, the centre frame scrolls back to the top. At first sight it appears that many of the pages are blank if you've scrolled down on an earlier page.

[Panzer76]

A few points to remember:

1. Do Matrix want MORE customers than the UV crowd? If so, the "if you know UV you will be fine" arguments is not a good argument.

2. Also, as others pointed out, if you drastically change the scope etc of the game, you cant simply "port" the UV UI. I know there has been made some improvments, but by and large, its seems to have retained teh basics.

3. How can IMPROVING the UI scare away Grognards? Do they somehow dislike intuitive and easily accessable UIs?

4. Is the right mouse butten STILL unfunctional in WiTP? If so, Its mind blowing! Think od all the one click actions you could enable by using BOTH buttons.

5. Shouldnt the developers also focus on a great UI? I mean, I dont think anyone here, besides hard core fans, beta testers and developers would argue that WiTP has a GREAT UI?
Somehow, I do not think this is the developers strong suit.

6. The more complex game the game is, the more essential is it for the UI to be good. This is a VERY complex game, nuff said..

[Captain Cruft]

I think the UI has both good and bad aspects. Some things are very quick, others desperately over-complicated and slow.

For my money keyboard shortcuts in the edit and list boxes would make a huge, vast and enormous difference. It's difficult to believe that you can't actually use the cursor keys to scroll down a list ...

[Mr.Frag]

It's difficult to believe that you can't actually use the cursor keys to scroll down a list ...

Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?

Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?
Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Agreed the mouse wheel in the list is easier than the scrollbar arrows, but I still haven't found a way to page through the list. The standard way of clicking outside the marker for the current row/page, just jumps to that point in the list. Maybe that's just fine for you, but I like to page through long lists of stuff. Of course, I'd prefer to have more filters so that I don't have such a long list in the first place. [;)]

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?

Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Sorry, my mistake. Since the keyboard is otherwise redundant I assumed it was also the case in that context.

I was wondering ... Is there any chance an API could be made available (binary form only) so that people could write their own front-ends? Or possibly some sort of plugin interface? Chargeable of course [:)] Since it's going to take people 3-5 years to play this thing through with PBEM it might be worth it ...

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
Which pages are without content? If you find a broken link then please report it to the webmaster.

Can't figure out how to do that from the WitP site as I couldn't find any link to the webmaster. [;)] So I posted here about most of the "links" being dead. David Heath replied so I assume he's forwarded to whoever's responsible.

How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon . We have this footer on every Matrix Games official game page.

I agree on the links list, but please keep in mind that these are third party websites. They don´t belong to Matrix Games, so please don´t "blame us" if they´re down or don´t have any content currently

One thing that would be useful on the site is that when you click on a new link from the left hand menu, the centre frame scrolls back to the top. At first sight it appears that many of the pages are blank if you've scrolled down on an earlier page.

This is on my fix list since long. It was a CSS / Layers problem I couldn´t fix. Now I know how. [;)]

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon .

LOL, so there are. [:D] Top marks to the page desinger for hiding them away out of sight so nicely: I'd have never noticed them if you hadn't told me.[;)]

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
How about looking at the bottom of each content, see the little three icons there, one of them is a mail icon .

LOL, so there are. [:D] Top marks to the page desinger for hiding them away out of sight so nicely: I'd have never noticed them if you hadn't told me.[;)]

I can make them 500x500 pixels big if you like.

[kayjay]

Many of us older gamers suffer from poor eyesight and RSI injuries - and we are the ones with $ to spend on $70 games. The font problems have been addressed in antoher thread. To play WITP should not require one to have played UV to learn the interface. The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself to allow the use of text editors, multiplew monitors and such and allow the player to view their computers clock or check email while a turn is running.

Kevin

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: kkelley

Many of us older gamers suffer from poor eyesight and RSI injuries - and we are the ones with $ to spend on $70 games. The font problems have been addressed in antoher thread. To play WITP should not require one to have played UV to learn the interface. The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself to allow the use of text editors, multiplew monitors and such and allow the player to view their computers clock or check email while a turn is running.

Kevin

You can run it "windowed". It´s an unsupported feature. It´s been mentioned quite often now allready.

You don´t have to have played UV to be able to play WITP.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: kkelley

The interface should take advantage of windowing - the game should be a window itself .....

Create a shortcut from the EXE to the desktop. Right click on the shortcut and put a -w at the end of the "Target" field. Click "OK". The game will run in a windowed mode then, but as mentioned before, it´s unsupported.

[Tige]

I hate that my first post is critical of the game but the interface is cumbersome. There is alot of information to digest, especially playing full map scenarios, which could be represented better with a graphical representation rather than everything displayed as a clipboard such as sigint and coast watchers.

Using coastwatchers as an example: Instead of the clipboard which is anchored in the middle of the screen listing out oodles of sightings, why not have a "coastwatchers map" with all sightings plotted on a map at the end of each turn? Either the full map or by command map sectors. Mouse over the binoculars and have the info from that watcher in a pop up like mousing over a base? Reading the clipboard at the end of each turn, or trying to keep up with the sightings during the turn is beyond tedium. In a full map scenario it takes hours to check the clipboard, go back to the map and find the location of the coastwatcher, then repeat for all sightings. A map would give the user the big picture immediately by showing increased or decreased activity etc etc. Overlay the SigInt and you can start to get a feel for what is going on.

Why not have a strategic map with filters to give the player access to the information all at once? The maps can be the full theater or each command. Hell, while I'm dreaming, they can be listed by Lat and Long vs. hexes.

At the end of a turn pull up a map for the scenario, on the side have filters which graphically represent different units or info i.e.

Surface Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Ships
Transport Ships
Subs

Air Units
Combat
Recon

Ground Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Units
HQs
Aviation Units

Coastwatchers

SigInt

Say a player checks the coastwatchers map and sees increased activity in a particular area. With the coastwatcher filter selected, overlay the SigInt and Subs. He now can divert subs within the area and can make a decision if it is worth diverting to intercept.

Same with supplies, if a base has been attacked or needs more supplies, select the appropriate Transports and see if a supply transport can be diverted etc etc.

The only other beef I really have is supplies and ground troops. Having to load in supplies is like having to equip infantry units with a particular firearm. Each units' load value should include supplies imho.

-Tige

[UncleBuck]

I like the UI. It seems pretty intuitive to me actually. I woudl like to get a map that lists Grid Locations however. It is nice to see Combat at 43,21 but where the hell is that? There is no grid locator other than clicking on a hex and readign that location. Maybe teh addition of general map grids on the COntrol screen. It divides up the map into CPU /Human control, why not add in the grid scale per section. Might make it easier to figure out who did what where.

UB

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Where do you guys come up with this stuff from?
Cursor keys AND Mouse Wheels work just fine in lists. Please stop inventing complaints about stuff that already exists.

Agreed the mouse wheel in the list is easier than the scrollbar arrows, but I still haven't found a way to page through the list. The standard way of clicking outside the marker for the current row/page, just jumps to that point in the list. Maybe that's just fine for you, but I like to page through long lists of stuff. Of course, I'd prefer to have more filters so that I don't have such a long list in the first place. [;)]

Once again, I think it would be preferable if the game interface worked exactly like a standard Windows application written to Microsoft's User Interface Standards. Standard dialog buttons (like Ok and Cancel/Exit) in standard and CONSISTANT locations. Windows standard mousing, list paging, item selection, etc. Standard Windows menubar, toolbar, statusbar widgets. Ability to run in whatever resolution you want (I should be able to run in 1600x1200 if I want to).

And what's with that save dialog? What planet did that nonsense come from. What's the problem with the universally standard WIN32 file dialog?

We all work in Windows in our daily work lives, and at least in a turn based wargame, a standard Windows interface is just fine. We live in that evironment and it is tried and true. You can still have all the eye candy you want inside the windows, including DirectX based graphics and sound(yuch!) if you wan them, but what's so hard or bad about using the now universally accepted standard Windows interface?

[The Gnome]

The whole exit button location controversy has me a bit befuddled. Whenever I wanna exit a screen I just hit the ESC button. Why waste a mouse click?

Because different people fall into different patterns. Some people like the keyboard and get used to hitting "Esc" other get used to using the mouse. You still need to take an action to get off that screen - whether it's a click or a keystroke. Also, using the "Esc" key can lead to some funky behaviour, especially during turn resolution where you could close two windows by hitting "esc" once.

As to the UI in general, it's not a strength. The whole point of UI design is to make the interface interaction almost invisible. The user should feel like he's directly manipulating the data - not manipulating an interface that's manipulating the data. When I use a good interface it's almost like my thoughts are flowing into the computer and anything that disrupts that process needs to be eliminated. Unfortunately, the WiTP interface is loaded with those hiccups that jolt my immersion.

Some of the common things:
-Slowness/delays when clicking certain buttons.
-Hard to read fonts
-Inconsistent location of buttons
-Displaying Code Values and opposed to descriptions
-Unexpected behaviour (example: Click the Airfield list and if the mouse is over a link when the window opens that link gets clicked too)
-Hard to click buttons and symbols.

The interface isn't bad and makes quite a few improvements from its UV cousin. It could be a lot better though. Some of the improvements may be easy to make, others may be design level problems which we'll likely be stuck with.

[Panzer76]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck
I like the UI. It seems pretty intuitive to me actually.

Have you played UV? Sorry, but I assume you have. Really, to determine how good the UI is, let new players that havent played UV comment. UV players already know the system, what they think is of limited value. IMHO.

[riverbravo]

Its kind of a catch 22.

With a game this size not everything will be a click away.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Tige

I hate that my first post is critical of the game but the interface is cumbersome. There is alot of information to digest, especially playing full map scenarios, which could be represented better with a graphical representation rather than everything displayed as a clipboard such as sigint and coast watchers.

Using coastwatchers as an example: Instead of the clipboard which is anchored in the middle of the screen listing out oodles of sightings, why not have a "coastwatchers map" with all sightings plotted on a map at the end of each turn? Either the full map or by command map sectors. Mouse over the binoculars and have the info from that watcher in a pop up like mousing over a base? Reading the clipboard at the end of each turn, or trying to keep up with the sightings during the turn is beyond tedium. In a full map scenario it takes hours to check the clipboard, go back to the map and find the location of the coastwatcher, then repeat for all sightings. A map would give the user the big picture immediately by showing increased or decreased activity etc etc. Overlay the SigInt and you can start to get a feel for what is going on.

Why not have a strategic map with filters to give the player access to the information all at once? The maps can be the full theater or each command. Hell, while I'm dreaming, they can be listed by Lat and Long vs. hexes.

At the end of a turn pull up a map for the scenario, on the side have filters which graphically represent different units or info i.e.

Surface Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Ships
Transport Ships
Subs

Air Units
Combat
Recon

Ground Units (with tracklines to destinations)
Combat Units
HQs
Aviation Units

Coastwatchers

SigInt

Say a player checks the coastwatchers map and sees increased activity in a particular area. With the coastwatcher filter selected, overlay the SigInt and Subs. He now can divert subs within the area and can make a decision if it is worth diverting to intercept.

Same with supplies, if a base has been attacked or needs more supplies, select the appropriate Transports and see if a supply transport can be diverted etc etc.

The only other beef I really have is supplies and ground troops. Having to load in supplies is like having to equip infantry units with a particular firearm. Each units' load value should include supplies imho.

-Tige

Yes aside from the non-Windows style interface that takes some getting used to, we need a lot more flexibility in data query and combat result display. The interface has come a long way from UV in terms of being able to sort and filter information, but the database is so vast it is almost as if we need an ad-hoc query interface. For instance I want just a list of Infantry LCU's with fatigue greater than 50 and supply "in the red". Or just a list of bases in a particular theater that are currently short of supply, general support, avaiation support without the clutter of the other bases in there. Sorting is nice, but filtering is even better.

Another sorely needed feature, due to the immense complexity of this game, is on-line, context sensative, help that is a standard feature in most Windows applications. When I get a "NOT ALLOWED" message I should be able to immediately click a help button or drag a "?" icon to the message and get a quick pop-up explaing what the problem is. Drag a "?" to that red number and get a pop-up that tells me what the field is and what might make it red.

Normally these are not big deals because most games are simple enough not to need them. But this game resembles, in a lot of ways, a complex data-driven enterprise business application, more than a real game. And as such, it probably could use the kind of features that normally accompany that kind of application. WitP is of such unprecedented scale that it probably has completely outgrown the normal paradigms in vogue today in game programming in a lot of ways. Interface is just on of them. Data management is another.