OK, this game has been out a while and has seen its first patch, so it is time for an assessment for those of us still considering whether or not to buy it. The big question is:
Is it fun?
Different things for different people, I know, but given the nature of the beast, some answer should be possible. Most games of this type are engrossing when they come out. Lots of time is spent exploring and learning the game itself. Fine. But when that is all over is gameplay good? Is it enjoyable to play after you learns how? Or is it a micro-management nightmare? Repetitively boring? Impossible UI? Is the AI any good?
From those of you have have played a bit, how about some comments? I expect more positive than negative comments based on the sample population
I loved SPI's War in Europe boardgame (still play it) and TOAW is one of my two favorite PC wargames. So, complexity is not an obstacle to me. Gameplay and interface, those are paramount...and AI. I only play against the PC in this type of game.
How about it?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
Its a great game and scenario 15 is a joy! I'm in a pbem game as the Allies and made atlest 20 major mistakes and its only Jan 17th!
This a a fantastic game and frankly afew map and OOB issues aside is extremely playable. Oh,note part of the joy in the game is that micromanagement aspect.
I have had the game about 2-3 weeks. I did play UV. I have only played vs the AI. The furthest I have gotten is from 7 Dec 41 to the end of Feb '42 (but now I am starting over, more familiar with the game and with the 1.21 patch).
My comments are about the Big Long Campaign, Allied side
The first turn is an enormous amount of time and work, particularly if you are not familiar with that scenario (deciding what, if anything, to do in the Aleutians in 1941. Deciding whether to fight or run in Borneo.). Once you have a little idea of the situation and have made some of those basic decisions the first turn is quicker, but still hours long.
After that organization is all done, things go much quicker in subsequent turns. You have lots of TFs going here and there, but if you check the ports each turn (and if you have the wit to send everything going California to Australia to Brisbane only and then distribute from there, rather than send every convoy to a different port in eastern australia) you can quickly see what needs to be done.
Turns take (on my computer) about 5-10 minutes to process once I hit "go" (not too bad). I can easily get 5 turns done in a couple of hours in the evening once turn one is behind me.
I really really like the detail. The right things happen for the right reason (usually inadequate reconnaisance or inadequate supply when I get in a pickle).
I estimate it would take about a year to play the entire 1941 to 1945 game (maybe 1 month of the game per week of realtime or 4 years in 50 weeks).
Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.
OK, this game has been out a while and has seen its first patch, so it is time for an assessment for those of us still considering whether or not to buy it. The big question is:
Is it fun?
Different things for different people, I know, but given the nature of the beast, some answer should be possible. Most games of this type are engrossing when they come out. Lots of time is spent exploring and learning the game itself. Fine. But when that is all over is gameplay good? Is it enjoyable to play after you learns how? Or is it a micro-management nightmare? Repetitively boring? Impossible UI? Is the AI any good?
From those of you have have played a bit, how about some comments? I expect more positive than negative comments based on the sample population
I loved SPI's War in Europe boardgame (still play it) and TOAW is one of my two favorite PC wargames. So, complexity is not an obstacle to me. Gameplay and interface, those are paramount...and AI. I only play against the PC in this type of game.
How about it?
Short answer, yes. Got it on day one of availability. Six starts as Allied vs Japan AI, latest made it to Mar 42. Three starts as Japan, currently in Mar 42.
Long answer, Game will be fun for almost anyone that does not get hung up on:
1) Features inherent in the underlieing design like fixed aircraft upgrade paths, lack of "waypoint" based TF routing, and other limitations in the game or editor...
2) Innaccuracies in OOB that are mostly cosmetic in nature
3) Overly dependent on a reactive AI to provide a deep experience in a solitaire game. So long as you're satisfied with staying "in-the-box", it will be a lot of fun.
4) Not expecting to be able to get through a major campaign in less than six months of playing a few hours a day....
Probably represents the end of the line or maximum possible state-of-the-art for this kind of a game. No for everyone, for sure, but if micromanaging a complex wargame is your baby, you are in heaven, most likely. If you want a game you can complete in a long weekend or a week on vacation, look elsewhere....
I've played other games where the micro management has been a real turn off. It seems like it's there for no good reason. However, in WiTP the micro management is fun because it's obviously at the core of the strategy, and not just tacked on for it's own sake.
The pacific theatre was such that supply cannot be handled absractly in a game. More than any other campaign, it was a war of supply.. this increases the micro management, but leads to the tension and enjoyment of the game.
In many other Pacific games I've played, only the major battles were simulated.. hence losing a carrier, or carrier tf, meant you lost the game. In WiTP losing one or more carriers doesn't make you lose, but it makes it harder to supply your war. It's a major setback, but you survive to actually view the consequences.
The AI has problems, but far fewer than many other games I could mention, and we're still at an early stage after release.
The UI is typical hex wargame.. it's not revolutionaty but does the job. Once familiar with it you can do all the things you need to.
The production side is terribly under wraps. Neither the UI, the map or the manual adequately explains it.. luckily there are now a number of user files that really help decode what's going on under the surface.
No one really knows, yet, how the game plays fully as it will be some months before any number of people complete a full campaign to see how it all holds together but, so far, it seems to be one of the most detailed, comprehensive studies of a massive conflict. In short, a work of art.
Nothing has engaged me like this for over a month since release. Nothing.. since I first played a computer games in 1982 [:)]
It's more than a game - it's a lifestyle. And an extremely enjoyable one. Here's my take:
No wargame in 25 years has produced the level of this one in terms of its sense of "real world correlation". By that I mean, I actually have plain old Natuional Geographic maps of the Far East on my gaming room walls that I use just to ponder strategies. My huge Pacific wall map (4' x 8') is annotated with little yellow stickies to track my troops int he current PBEM game. It's that much fun.
I will be playing this for YEARS, simply because it is so engrossing.
Planning by the seat of your pants will not work for long.
Basically, esp. for the IJ Player, you better of planned the whole war before you wrap up turn 1.
Their is no way any other game of this depth and magnitude on the Pacific War could ever be made; this project is the end all of any wargame on this theater for awhile.
Planning by the seat of your pants will not work for long.
Amen!. If you are going to need 250,000 tons of supplies in Noumea on August 1, 1943 then you had better realize that around Jan 1, 1943. And if you are going to launch out of Noumea Aug 1 you had better have 250,000 tons of supplies.
I have a word document with one sheet per command (SOPAC, SWPAC, China etc.) and lists on it of stuff to do before I can proceed to the next step on each page.
If you like staff work (thinking ahead, not necessarily micromanagement) this is for you.
It is _so_ huge you can't micromanage in one sense. Remember the old board games where you needed one more 1-5 unit to get to 3:1 odds? That doesn't work here. To many variables. You plan but you have to allow for some unexpected oopses and for units being not quite as strong as expected (malaria, fatigue, the replacements that are still in transit).
So you don't sit there and calculate "250,000 tons of supplies" but "I am going to need a lot of supplies in Noumea in 6 mos if I want to start a Big Offensive there. Do I have the shipping to build up and sustain that effort?
Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.
ORIGINAL: Wilhammer
I will be playing this for YEARS, simply because it is so engrossing.
Unfortunately, this is also a MAJOR downside to this. There are other intellectual pursuits I want to pay attention to, that are on the back burner that pretty soon here, I'm going to want to readdress. But doing that, means never being able to finish this one! If you choose this game, it really becomes THE choice for your free time, not A choice. It's just too involved to play a few turns every other weekend or so and then come back a few weeks later for another round....
More than fun. As has been said, to get the most out of this one requires a serious commitment of time and thought. Its easy, especially playing the full campaign, with one day turns, to be tempted to put off strategic decisions, thinking that there's plenty of time. But actions, and inactions tend to have snowballing effects with this one, and long-term planning is essential, just as is knowing when to fight and when to cut your losses. When playing the Allies versus the AI, as I've been doing, you need fairly early on to decide where your final fall back line, where you are going to make your stand, is going to be, and then try and fight a calculated delaying action which will hopefully lead to the Japs running out of steam round about the time they reach that line. And try not to lose too heavily (especially in ships) yourself in the process.
The counteroffensive phase, which I haven't reached yet, is probably going to present a whole new series of problems.
A few bugs and strange AI actions , though they are being mopped up, but if you play with a feel for the historical realities rather than being too "gamey", it works pretty well. I've been playing wargames, board, miniature and PC for the best part of thirty years, and WitP, overall, is just about the best yet, and has literally years of play potential.
Absolutely the best game I've ever played. Very immersive and nice detail.
I go to the South Pacific and plan an amphibious invasion. I plan for shipping supplies, troops, air cover, support troops later, and a covering surface force. I determine how much I will build up my new base and which airgroups I will station there.
I turn to China where massive armies wage war along a huge line. Some of my finest divisions fight here. I bring in close air support and bring up more troops. I manage garrisons on bases I just captured and try to flank my enemy. Can I cut his lines this time?
Then I go to Japan where one of my factories is short of widgets. I have some extra in Korea but need to get them home. Another factory tells me they can exceed thier quota with a little expansion, but can we afford the expansion? The Combined Fleet wants us to rush production on the new CV's but the Army cries it needs more medium tanks.
Our stockpile of oil is running low, we know where it is, can we get to it in time?
Saburo Sakai just scored his 18th kill. Tanaka has proven himself an able commander with both destroyers and battleships.
And this is just one turn [:D]
"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson
This is my favorite computer wargame ever. It's not even close. I won't echo what everyone else has already said. Instead, I will mention one or two things that don't appeal to everyone, so that you can go in with eyes open.
1. One is logistics. You're responsible for moving supply, fuel, oil, and resources around the map -- together with aviation support personnel, engineers, HQ units, transport planes, search planes, destroyer tenders, PT boat tenders, sub tenders, you name it. There's no magic movement of supply as in other games, except to a limited extent over land. In general, you're the quartermaster. You can get some AI help in automating this, but if it's important, you're doing it.
2. Another is detail. You set altitudes for your airstrikes around half the globe. You set base targets for infantry 100 days in advance, if you're smart and organized. You choose which DDs escort which Transport and Air Combat TFs. You repair your carriers. You manage your pilots' fatigue and morale. You route your supply convoys around enemy air bases. You have the option of managing each of dozens of individual submarines (or of handing this off to the AI). Yes, you can set some zones on computer control. Most of us seem to do it all ourselves.
3. Yet another is some modest limitation on your authority as theater commander. Not every airstrike you order will take place. Sometimes pilots refuse to fly, if morale is low, or if they're tired, or if they're low on supply, or if they're operating from a small base, or if no Air HQ is nearby. You have only limited control over which naval targets are attacked by your carrier planes. You order 'naval attack' and set a max range for that attack; but the Task Force commander ultimately chooses the target (and generally does a good job of it).
4. The AI is competent if you play against it in a generally historical way, but it has trouble with more freewheeling ahistorical strategies. E.g., playing as the Allies, I'm getting a good game from the AI because I'm following the historical approach: building up in SoPAC and CentPAC, preparing to counterattack thru New Guinea and the central Pacific. I'm not trying to take Kwajelein or Iwo Jima in the third week of the war. If you're going to play only the AI, be sure to set it to Hard or preferably Very Hard. I know you said you won't PBEM, and I may not either given time considerations, but I will say that UV (predecessor to WiTP) is the game that showed me just how different a wargame is by e-mail.
5. The time commitment. As others say, this game takes a lot of time. After the first couple turns, though, you'll start moving along much quicker. I do a turn in 30-45 minutes now.
6. The interface takes getting used to. It works perfectly well, but it takes some getting used to, and some elements could be improved upon. It's a non-issue for me, but a few people complain about it.
More than fun. As has been said, to get the most out of this one requires a serious commitment of time and thought. Its easy, especially playing the full campaign, with one day turns, to be tempted to put off strategic decisions, thinking that there's plenty of time. But actions, and inactions tend to have snowballing effects with this one, and long-term planning is essential, just as is knowing when to fight and when to cut your losses. When playing the Allies versus the AI, as I've been doing, you need fairly early on to decide where your final fall back line, where you are going to make your stand, is going to be, and then try and fight a calculated delaying action which will hopefully lead to the Japs running out of steam round about the time they reach that line. And try not to lose too heavily (especially in ships) yourself in the process.
The counteroffensive phase, which I haven't reached yet, is probably going to present a whole new series of problems.
A few bugs and strange AI actions , though they are being mopped up, but if you play with a feel for the historical realities rather than being too "gamey", it works pretty well. I've been playing wargames, board, miniature and PC for the best part of thirty years, and WitP, overall, is just about the best yet, and has literally years of play potential.
WitP is most definitely an "intellectual pusuit" as much as a game. I give MUCH more intense attention to intellectual pursuits than casual entertainment. Most games are the latter. Not this one.
Absolutely the best game I've ever played. Very immersive and nice detail.
I go to the South Pacific and plan an amphibious invasion. I plan for shipping supplies, troops, air cover, support troops later, and a covering surface force. I determine how much I will build up my new base and which airgroups I will station there.
I turn to China where massive armies wage war along a huge line. Some of my finest divisions fight here. I bring in close air support and bring up more troops. I manage garrisons on bases I just captured and try to flank my enemy. Can I cut his lines this time?
Then I go to Japan where one of my factories is short of widgets. I have some extra in Korea but need to get them home. Another factory tells me they can exceed thier quota with a little expansion, but can we afford the expansion? The Combined Fleet wants us to rush production on the new CV's but the Army cries it needs more medium tanks.
Our stockpile of oil is running low, we know where it is, can we get to it in time?
Saburo Sakai just scored his 18th kill. Tanaka has proven himself an able commander with both destroyers and battleships.
And this is just one turn [:D]
Geez, you do all that? I just move my little boat thingies around and click end of phase button.[X(]
Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
I'm new here; just got WitP last weekend, I didn't have much time yet to play. I half way through the tutorial (got a bit bored with finished the allied part); I red the manual a bit and started playing 15th scenario waaay too much stuff for now so I started playing I think it's the 3rd scenario (only 15 turns) and I'm having a blast! Expensive game and I had to pay for printing the manual but it's really worth it!!! I love the air war; every time I watch the air combat it makes we want to fire up IL2 flight sim and play it out in 3D Yeah I'm hard core fligh sim nut case.
Is there any chance Bombing the Reich will get an update ? I would like to see 2by3 games work on that in the future. I would be happy to pay just as much for Bombing the Reich 2 as I did for WitP.
I estimate it would take about a year to play the entire 1941 to 1945 game (maybe 1 month of the game per week of realtime or 4 years in 50 weeks).
This time frame is the only item in the thread that bothers me significantly. Not only would I like to be able to finish a solo game in a month or two or maybe three, for my own satisfaction ( and play more than one campaign in my lifetime!), I am puzzled as to how this game could have been debugged and balanced for the campaign if it takes that long to play. Time warped beta-testers?
Other than that rather significant item, the game sounds good.
Thank you all for the comments. Anyone considering the game should read this thread.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
I am not sure about the "time" part, but the beta testers were definitely "warped" [:D]
ORIGINAL: solops
ORIGINAL: Beezle
I estimate it would take about a year to play the entire 1941 to 1945 game (maybe 1 month of the game per week of realtime or 4 years in 50 weeks).
This time frame is the only item in the thread that bothers me significantly. Not only would I like to be able to finish a solo game in a month or two or maybe three, for my own satisfaction ( and play more than one campaign in my lifetime!), I am puzzled as to how this game could have been debugged and balanced for the campaign if it takes that long to play. Time warped beta-testers?
Other than that rather significant item, the game sounds good.
Thank you all for the comments. Anyone considering the game should read this thread.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
Come on, everyone, we've got to face it: if you buy this, you're in trouble...
All you think about is WitP, next turn, what you SHOULD have done last turn... You can't sleep, you're dog's angry at not being fed (let alone companion or children, if you have any), work doesn't get done at work, your house doesn't get cleaned... Enjoyable? Fun? Naw. It's engrossing, even consuming. I'm terrified my hard drive will crash and I'll lose my game! [:D]
Yeah I'm hard core fligh sim nut case.
