Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[von Beanie]

Before I knew of this thread, I spent several hours tinkering with engine production and deciding which planes I wanted to research, making the changes as appropriate at the various factories. I also noted that some factories were already researching advanced models more than one year before they enter the game.

Then I started reading this thread and learned that even if I researched a higher quality plane type and moved its production up a year I could not use it because my squadrons would not accept it. Thus, I feel like I wasted a lot of time playing around with the research aspects of the game because there appears to be no real payoff. (It is also possible that I have misunderstood this thread because I am just starting my first Japanese campaign game).

I am willing to live with the current system, but then the research subsystem should be eliminated if it is essentially irrelevant to the game outcome (I would appreciate it someone could explain to me why I should spend hours tinkering with it?). Secondly, if I am supposed to produce a certain number of various planes in various years to fully equip my Japanese squadrons, PLEASE let me know in advance about how many of X types and Y types I will need in the various future years to do this properly so that I can try to create those numbers via the production system. I certainly don't want to waste another evening trying to figure out what plane types I will need to equip my squadrons in future years because it is a fixed part of the system design.

I am one of the quiet folk that believe either the research program should be eliminated OR it should work fully to the benefit of the player willing to make the effort. Personally, I vote for option #2 not because I am an Axis fanboy, but because I appreciate a good game design more than an exact recreation of historical events.

Best wishes, Norm

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Before I knew of this thread, I spent several hours tinkering with engine production and deciding which planes I wanted to research, making the changes as appropriate at the various factories. I also noted that some factories were already researching advanced models more than one year before they enter the game.

Then I started reading this thread and learned that even if I researched a higher quality plane type and moved its production up a year I could not use it because my squadrons would not accept it. Thus, I feel like I wasted a lot of time playing around with the research aspects of the game because there appears to be no real payoff. (It is also possible that I have misunderstood this thread because I am just starting my first Japanese campaign game).

I am willing to live with the current system, but then the research subsystem should be eliminated if it is essentially irrelevant to the game outcome (I would appreciate it someone could explain to me why I should spend hours tinkering with it?). Secondly, if I am supposed to produce a certain number of various planes in various years to fully equip my Japanese squadrons, PLEASE let me know in advance about how many of X types and Y types I will need in the various future years to do this properly so that I can try to create those numbers via the production system. I certainly don't want to waste another evening trying to figure out what plane types I will need to equip my squadrons in future years because it is a fixed part of the system design.

I am one of the quiet folk that believe either the research program should be eliminated OR it should work fully to the benefit of the player willing to make the effort. Personally, I vote for option #2 not because I am an Axis fanboy, but because I appreciate a good game design more than an exact recreation of historical events.

Best wishes, Norm

I suppose you could just abandon all research and concentrate on what you really need, right now. The Ki-27s WILL go to Oscar IIa's but then that's it. Once you've got a big pool move it to some other A/C you are short of. I'm ALWAYS short of current Zero's and G4M-whatevers. I could surely use all that capacity wasting away in research to build gobs of those, I suppose...

[Mr.Frag]

Some basic numbers assuming you manage to not loose anything at all, the final picture of Japan's air force looks like this:

(these are groups - smaller squads were rounded into these)

50 A7M2 (fighter - 7/45)
34 Ki-43-IIa (fighter 1/43)
13 Ki-102a (fighter-bomber - 7/44)
12 Ki-84-Ic (fighter - 12/44)
12 Ki-100 (fighter - 2/45)
10 J7W (fighter - 8/45)
10 A6M5c (fighter bomber - 9/43)

You have 60 locations in the game that can be set to produce an aircraft of any type

There are 31 unique aircraft types (discounting upgrades that convert to a different type because they don't need to be double counted)

The 60 locations produce 1987 aircraft points (assuming you don't expand which when you look at your engine situation should be pretty clean why you can't)

Your engine capacity is 1521 (right off the bat you are way short on engine production)

Assuming you quit producing any two engine or four engine plane, you are short over 400 hundred engines. Realistically, you are short more like 900 engines because you will not quit making multi-engine aircraft.

If you think you are going to have spare aircraft laying around with nowhere to go, you are in a state of denial.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Before I knew of this thread, I spent several hours tinkering with engine production and deciding which planes I wanted to research, making the changes as appropriate at the various factories. I also noted that some factories were already researching advanced models more than one year before they enter the game.

Then I started reading this thread and learned that even if I researched a higher quality plane type and moved its production up a year I could not use it because my squadrons would not accept it. Thus, I feel like I wasted a lot of time playing around with the research aspects of the game because there appears to be no real payoff. (It is also possible that I have misunderstood this thread because I am just starting my first Japanese campaign game).

I am willing to live with the current system, but then the research subsystem should be eliminated if it is essentially irrelevant to the game outcome (I would appreciate it someone could explain to me why I should spend hours tinkering with it?). Secondly, if I am supposed to produce a certain number of various planes in various years to fully equip my Japanese squadrons, PLEASE let me know in advance about how many of X types and Y types I will need in the various future years to do this properly so that I can try to create those numbers via the production system. I certainly don't want to waste another evening trying to figure out what plane types I will need to equip my squadrons in future years because it is a fixed part of the system design.

I am one of the quiet folk that believe either the research program should be eliminated OR it should work fully to the benefit of the player willing to make the effort. Personally, I vote for option #2 not because I am an Axis fanboy, but because I appreciate a good game design more than an exact recreation of historical events.

Best wishes, Norm

Mr. Frag,

I think this is a good point, are you able to comment on this, and is Matrix aware of this discussion and if so are they going to give us an explanation?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Before I knew of this thread, I spent several hours tinkering with engine production and deciding which planes I wanted to research, making the changes as appropriate at the various factories. I also noted that some factories were already researching advanced models more than one year before they enter the game.

Then I started reading this thread and learned that even if I researched a higher quality plane type and moved its production up a year I could not use it because my squadrons would not accept it. Thus, I feel like I wasted a lot of time playing around with the research aspects of the game because there appears to be no real payoff. (It is also possible that I have misunderstood this thread because I am just starting my first Japanese campaign game).

I am willing to live with the current system, but then the research subsystem should be eliminated if it is essentially irrelevant to the game outcome (I would appreciate it someone could explain to me why I should spend hours tinkering with it?). Secondly, if I am supposed to produce a certain number of various planes in various years to fully equip my Japanese squadrons, PLEASE let me know in advance about how many of X types and Y types I will need in the various future years to do this properly so that I can try to create those numbers via the production system. I certainly don't want to waste another evening trying to figure out what plane types I will need to equip my squadrons in future years because it is a fixed part of the system design.

I am one of the quiet folk that believe either the research program should be eliminated OR it should work fully to the benefit of the player willing to make the effort. Personally, I vote for option #2 not because I am an Axis fanboy, but because I appreciate a good game design more than an exact recreation of historical events.

Best wishes, Norm

Sorry, Frag has led you a bit astray by polluting the topic of aircraft upgrades with the topic of aircraft research. My feelings on aircraft research aside (I would rather the game not have it at all), it remains useful. You do have to be careful with respect to how you use it.

Any aircraft that is an upgrade to another aircraft is a legitimate target for research. Aircraft that no aircraft upgrades to are not. If you succeed in getting the planes early, you have to await the reinforcement groups before you can use them. The P1Y Frances is an example of an aircraft you might not want to research. Nothing upgrades to it, so even if you get it early, you can't use it because the only airgroups that can use it are fixed in terms of their arrival dates.

On the other hand, you want to be careful about researching an aircraft like the Tony. While it has decent stats as a fighter, the total number of squadrons that can upgrade to it is small. If you take aircraft like the A6M8 or A7M, they are excellent choices for research because they are upgrades to very large numbers of fighters. Likewise, the Oscar is an decent choice for research because almost all Nate airgroups (over 1000 a/c) upgrade to it. Ditto the B7N. For a better discussion, see tm.asp?m=664127 .

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Good post oznoyng.

[2ndACR]

Good Grief, We have created the new Bismark thread.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Before I knew of this thread, I spent several hours tinkering with engine production and deciding which planes I wanted to research, making the changes as appropriate at the various factories. I also noted that some factories were already researching advanced models more than one year before they enter the game.

Then I started reading this thread and learned that even if I researched a higher quality plane type and moved its production up a year I could not use it because my squadrons would not accept it. Thus, I feel like I wasted a lot of time playing around with the research aspects of the game because there appears to be no real payoff. (It is also possible that I have misunderstood this thread because I am just starting my first Japanese campaign game).

I am willing to live with the current system, but then the research subsystem should be eliminated if it is essentially irrelevant to the game outcome (I would appreciate it someone could explain to me why I should spend hours tinkering with it?). Secondly, if I am supposed to produce a certain number of various planes in various years to fully equip my Japanese squadrons, PLEASE let me know in advance about how many of X types and Y types I will need in the various future years to do this properly so that I can try to create those numbers via the production system. I certainly don't want to waste another evening trying to figure out what plane types I will need to equip my squadrons in future years because it is a fixed part of the system design.

I am one of the quiet folk that believe either the research program should be eliminated OR it should work fully to the benefit of the player willing to make the effort. Personally, I vote for option #2 not because I am an Axis fanboy, but because I appreciate a good game design more than an exact recreation of historical events.

Best wishes, Norm

Sorry, Frag has led you a bit astray by polluting the topic of aircraft upgrades with the topic of aircraft research. My feelings on aircraft research aside (I would rather the game not have it at all), it remains useful. You do have to be careful with respect to how you use it.

Any aircraft that is an upgrade to another aircraft is a legitimate target for research. Aircraft that no aircraft upgrades to are not. If you succeed in getting the planes early, you have to await the reinforcement groups before you can use them. The P1Y Frances is an example of an aircraft you might not want to research. Nothing upgrades to it, so even if you get it early, you can't use it because the only airgroups that can use it are fixed in terms of their arrival dates.

On the other hand, you want to be careful about researching an aircraft like the Tony. While it has decent stats as a fighter, the total number of squadrons that can upgrade to it is small. If you take aircraft like the A6M8 or A7M, they are excellent choices for research because they are upgrades to very large numbers of fighters. Likewise, the Oscar is an decent choice for research because almost all Nate airgroups (over 1000 a/c) upgrade to it. Ditto the B7N. For a better discussion, see tm.asp?m=664127 .

Not to hijack the thread (again..) But wasn't the development life-cycle of WWII aircraft as long or longer than the war itself? I mean, the B-29 was actually concieved in 1939 but took until mid 1944 to appear, and even then, it came out about sixe months too early. That being so, whatever A/C were going to appear were mostly already on the drawing board by Dec 7, 1941, making the entire research thing not only a-historic, but illogical as well. Similar to the vein of capital ship production thread about a six months ago... Only exceptions were maybe a few models at the very tail end of the war that never had enough numbers to really matter (F8F, for instance...).

[Mr.Frag]

Sorry, Frag has led you a bit astray by polluting the topic of aircraft upgrades with the topic of aircraft research. My feelings on aircraft research aside (I would rather the game not have it at all), it remains useful. You do have to be careful with respect to how you use it.

Any aircraft that is an upgrade to another aircraft is a legitimate target for research. Aircraft that no aircraft upgrades to are not. If you succeed in getting the planes early, you have to await the reinforcement groups before you can use them. The P1Y Frances is an example of an aircraft you might not want to research. Nothing upgrades to it, so even if you get it early, you can't use it because the only airgroups that can use it are fixed in terms of their arrival dates.

On the other hand, you want to be careful about researching an aircraft like the Tony. While it has decent stats as a fighter, the total number of squadrons that can upgrade to it is small. If you take aircraft like the A6M8 or A7M, they are excellent choices for research because they are upgrades to very large numbers of fighters. Likewise, the Oscar is an decent choice for research because almost all Nate airgroups (over 1000 a/c) upgrade to it. Ditto the B7N.

Watch out for the engine shell game. You have no engines. Always remember that. All the aircraft production in the world makes nothing with engines.

You can not separate the two ... they are linked together.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Some basic numbers assuming you manage to not loose anything at all, the final picture of Japan's air force looks like this:

(these are groups - smaller squads were rounded into these)

50 A7M2 (fighter - 7/45)
34 Ki-43-IIa (fighter 1/43)
13 Ki-102a (fighter-bomber - 7/44)
12 Ki-84-Ic (fighter - 12/44)
12 Ki-100 (fighter - 2/45)
10 J7W (fighter - 8/45)
10 A6M5c (fighter bomber - 9/43)

You have 60 locations in the game that can be set to produce an aircraft of any type

There are 31 unique aircraft types (discounting upgrades that convert to a different type because they don't need to be double counted)

The 60 locations produce 1987 aircraft points (assuming you don't expand which when you look at your engine situation should be pretty clean why you can't)

Your engine capacity is 1521 (right off the bat you are way short on engine production)

Assuming you quit producing any two engine or four engine plane, you are short over 400 hundred engines. Realistically, you are short more like 900 engines because you will not quit making multi-engine aircraft.

If you think you are going to have spare aircraft laying around with nowhere to go, you are in a state of denial.

Frag, you are counting aircraft production units that are involved in research in this figure, which as fas as I have seen do not consume engines. 320 of the 1987 points you refer to are tied up in one factory - the one researching Franks that doesn't appear until 44. Over the course of years, your production will reach 1987 a/c points if you do no expansion and never halt anything, however, you will have years of surplus engine production to counter that and there are many many aircraft types that can be halted as the end nears. The actual aircraft production figure is more llike 650 a/c using 917 engines in month 1 generating a surplus of roughly 604 engines per month at war start. (That understates the need for more Nakajima engines, for which there is more demand than production).

[Tankerace]

It seems to me, that 2by3 screwed the pooch on this one. They half ass did the research thing, and thus you can get the a/c sooner, but you can't use them. So, irregardless of what ANYONE thinks, it needs to be fixed. Once we all realise that, then we can move on. The question is, how does this get fixed?

I am an Allied fanboy, and I rarely (if ever) willplay the Japanese side. But it seems to me, that if you have enough fighter planes to at least equip ONE, and ONLY ONE squadron, irregardless of when, then if that unit is a fighter squadron, and its max a/c is equal too or less than the amount of planes you have available, then you should use them.

The premis (as at one point I understood it) of the game is that you are the Supreme commander of the Allied or Japanese forces in the Pacific. However, if you cannot even alter something as deciding what plane a squdron uses, on EITHER side, then you are not the Supreme Commander. All you are is some guy that has about 75% control of his forces. And as Vietnam taught the United States, to win you must be in TOTAL control, not half-assed control over your forces.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Kinda of where I've decided to come down on the issue. Fix it one way or the other.....but fix it.

[Mr.Frag]

Frag, you are counting aircraft production units that are involved in research in this figure, which as fas as I have seen do not consume engines. 320 of the 1987 points you refer to are tied up in one factory - the one researching Franks that doesn't appear until 44. Over the course of years, your production will reach 1987 a/c points if you do no expansion and never halt anything, however, you will have years of surplus engine production to counter that and there are many many aircraft types that can be halted as the end nears. The actual aircraft production figure is more llike 650 a/c using 917 engines in month 1 generating a surplus of roughly 604 engines per month at war start. (That understates the need for more Nakajima engines, for which there is more demand than production).

<chuckle> That Frank situation vanishes on turn 1 of my games.

Just for those that don't want to think long term:

678 Current Airframes, 1309 Future Airframes (damaged)

[Tankerace]

Yeah, but as I said, how do we fix it? Does research get scrapped, or can we use the planes, or what. Or, is Matrix/2by3 even going to listen to us.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Those are the two choices. The One Way or the Other. Kid, put up a poll!! We can "vote" on it.

[Tankerace]

A poll, brilliant idea. Get what the people want!

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

A poll, brilliant idea. Get what the people want!

Kid's the only one with a "New Poll" button on his forum display....

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

A poll, brilliant idea. Get what the people want!

Kid's the only one with a "New Poll" button on his forum display....but he's not a grad of the Moderator school...

[vonmoltke]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Some basic numbers assuming you manage to not loose anything at all, the final picture of Japan's air force looks like this:

(these are groups - smaller squads were rounded into these)

50 A7M2 (fighter - 7/45)
34 Ki-43-IIa (fighter 1/43)
13 Ki-102a (fighter-bomber - 7/44)
12 Ki-84-Ic (fighter - 12/44)
12 Ki-100 (fighter - 2/45)
10 J7W (fighter - 8/45)
10 A6M5c (fighter bomber - 9/43)

You have 60 locations in the game that can be set to produce an aircraft of any type

There are 31 unique aircraft types (discounting upgrades that convert to a different type because they don't need to be double counted)

The 60 locations produce 1987 aircraft points (assuming you don't expand which when you look at your engine situation should be pretty clean why you can't)

Your engine capacity is 1521 (right off the bat you are way short on engine production)

Assuming you quit producing any two engine or four engine plane, you are short over 400 hundred engines. Realistically, you are short more like 900 engines because you will not quit making multi-engine aircraft.

If you think you are going to have spare aircraft laying around with nowhere to go, you are in a state of denial.

The bolded line is probably the sorest point created by the hard-coded upgrade paths. These groups are stuck with the Ki-27, even if the player chooses to emphasize Ki-43-Ib or Ki-44 production more than was actually done.

The second sorest point regards USN Corsairs and the plyaer's inability to deploy them to the carriers in lieu of the Hellcat, a decision the player should be able to make.

[Andy Mac]

The second sorest point regards USN Corsairs and the plyaer's inability to deploy them to the carriers in lieu of the Hellcat, a decision the player should be able to make.
[/quote]

Na the second sorest point is having all those Seafires in the pool in late 42 and not being able to upgrade Fulmers for 6 months and then to Wildcats...but then I am an RN fanboy [:D][:D]