Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Culiacan Mexico
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
It distorts the game historically.
History goes out the window as soon as I enter orders and the random number generator gets involved in resolving the first turn. We can adhere closely to the realities of WW2, but we can't reproduce it. And why would we want to? I can go read books if I want that. The problem with this rule is that it crosses the line between adhering to the realities and enforcing history on a situation that differs from history.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I think most of us want certain limits. We want the game to maintain some kind of historical flavor as I believe the developers do also. While allowing every Japanese army unit to fly Franks might be great in the game, was it likely to happen historically… I don’t believe so.
ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.
Restricting that is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with making choices consistent with the events of the game. In my mind, the major problem here arises from a situation in which the Japanese do better than history and manage to get more advanced aircraft produced than they did historically. The "historical" limitations to airgroups becomes a major point for the Japanese player.

I would support a BTR style upgrade path limited by IJA/IJN divisions and with a PP cost to upgrade outside of the existing path. It would be appropriate to have additional costs for moving between subtypes - fighter bomber/fighter/float fighter or engine configurations - 1/2/4 engine.

Alternatively, I would support upgrade paths that provided more advanced aircraft as terminal upgrades with the added ability to choose the "upgrade". The list of choices should include all active upgrades and ancestors of the most advanced active upgrade. By active I mean the aircraft is being produced.
I believe the present system is both too restrictive and not logical: the historic realities that allowed the 244 to upgrade to Tony/Tojo may not be there in a player’s game. An increase in the number of option open to the player is good, but unlimited abilities to change air groups based on hindsite might be going too far. IMO
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."
Actually, I want to know is why the Nate pilots in my 244 group can upgrade to Tojo/Tony’s, but my Nate pilots in my 1st group can’t. Historically, there were reasons why this choice was made by the Japanese Army, but will those same variables be there in my game?

If the Japanese historically were only able to convert 8-10 groups to Tony/Tojo, and this limitation was not caused by the lack of these aircraft, at least let me select which Nate group travels this path. As it is now, I have had to examine the future status of all fighter groups to see where the game will allow me to place my aircraft.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
There was a reason they couldn't make a thousand A8M's ...
A8Ms! [:D]

Hell, I am more interested in get Tonys and Tojos to replace my Nates, than aircraft that arrive so late in the war as to be pointless.
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MG3
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

Just my 2 cents (and opinions):

1. as a Softwaredeveloper myself I really cant understand why someone programms a realtive complex industrial management system where the player can decite what to build and to research freely, but dont let him use the stuff he just produced. Pretty senseless- they could simply done a system like in UV with factories producing a fixed amount of stuff. Less coding for the programmers, same result for the player. Or why I should invest hours and hours as a player in optimating my industry when I cannot upgrade my airgroups even within historic limits (IJA - IJN...)

2. I players like Mr. Frag argure "it would be unhistoric", ok. Maybe we could then simply have an option where the producion and upgrades for the Jap player are fixed like for the USA. So everyone would be happy- Mr. Frag and his group wouldnt need to use the system while the ones (like me), who love micromanagement so much get their forced upgrades unlocked. I cant see why Mr. Frag & Co is so interested to spoil the fun for a relative large group of people, just because he doesnt like it. And no, it wont become suddenly "C&C Generals: Pacific Flame War" just because you allow the Japplayer to use the stuff he produced.

2b. I really dont understand this "its unhistoric, so lets forbit it for everyone" kind of people. A pretty selfcentered bunch mostly. As I said above: nobody forces them to use this kind of system- they would still have the option of historic production. And what means historic? Maybe for some people it would be better when there would be a hardcoded movie like scenario, where everything happens at the right time and same outcome. Lets remember, every thing you do which wasnt done back then is unhistoric. So great, while we could do crap like directly attacking Tokyo with the 1st Marines in 1942, we cannot use the 1000 Franks we just produced in our Nate/Oscar IJA squadrons. Very logical, indeed.

I guess there are many people here who are micromangement fetishist like me- I sometimes enjoy the R&D more then the actual game. In BTR I alway played the Axis side because of the producion and that made more fun then the actual game turn (even it had a pretty crappy interface).
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Spooky »

ORIGINAL: MG3

I guess there are many people here who are micromangement fetishist like me- I sometimes enjoy the R&D more then the actual game. In BTR I alway played the Axis side because of the producion and that made more fun then the actual game turn (even it had a pretty crappy interface).

What is really amazing is that this "on-the-fly upgrade" feature is not asked by some newbies coming from the RTS world but mainly by long-time BTR players - and if the BTR players are not hard-core wargamers and so potential buyers of future Matrix games ... then I am not a bloody frogs-eater [;)]
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Bodhi »

ORIGINAL: Spooky
... then I am not a bloody frogs-eater [;)]

And there was I thinking it was only the legs you ate. Didn't realise you eat all the whole frog![X(][:D]
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Mr.Frag »

(a) Moving aircraft into production before their time by acceleration of production through over concentration.

(b) Coverting Japan's air force into something it was not.

(c) Using 20/20 Hindsight to control choice of Aircraft.

(d) Over-simplification of Japan's headache by consolodation.

You don't see *any* of these as being problems?


While people will continue to defend this as "I just want to use my 20 Franks that are sitting in the pool", that is just ducking the real issues above with a cop out answer. To think that those 20 Franks will not get burned up in a day worth of losses in your 10 Frank groups is silly, but it is a great way of ducking the real issues and making me into being a hardarse.

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.

It really comes across that you want a "Allied" version of Japan to play where all this is simply done for you. I can understand that and if that is what you want really, go ahead and ask for *that*. At least you are being honest about it instead of trying to cloak it into something else.

There are 31 unique aircraft types that need to be produced to keep Japan in play with all her many types of aircraft. That is the task you are faced with. Reducing this nightmare to 10 through conversions grossly simplifies your task. That is neither the desire nor the intent of the Developers who went out of their way to make Japan play as painfully realistic as possible within the limited context of what they could do. The Developers also attempted to block research into future aircraft that was unreasonable (against saying they don't want you to go down that path).

If you find that you need the 10 because the 31 is just to complex, please state *that*, it is a far more reasonable line of discussion vs the "I just want to use xyz aircraft because I made them". So what? You made them? The 10+ of the air groups you have will need them anyways.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

So when players want to do it- whats your problem with it? YOU dont have to use it- why you are so fanatic to spoil the fun for these people?

About your points: (I save myself the quotes- I am a kind of lazy today)
a) Moving aircraft into production before their time by acceleration of production through over concentration.

- so why the hell there is even a R&D function in this game then?

(b) Coverting Japan's air force into something it was not.

- buhuu, see point one

(c) Using 20/20 Hindsight to control choice of Aircraft.

- great argument. You have this hindsight for all the other points about the Pac War too. Using a good task force commander instead the historic indept one? Doing more ASW as the Jap player (Mogami is then the biggest 20/20 hindsight player here I guess)? Reinforcing the right bases? How do you want to keep players from this descisions. Again: see point one.

(d) Over-simplification of Japan's headache by consolodation.

- See point one. Again you have failed to make me understand a) why it is to bad for you if the players who want a little bit more freedom with functions, which YOU dont need to use and b) what sense it makes to let the player do R&D in the first place when he cant even use the junk he just produced.

Just make a switch at the game start where you can toggle the upgradepaths. Mr. Frag gets his crappy Oscars, the others get their micromanagement and a use for the production part. End of story.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by tsimmonds »

Mr Frag, while you are here and making so much sense, could you also opine as to why the Nate-OscarII path in the game does not progress an additional step to Franks or Tonys?
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

What is really amazing is that this "on-the-fly upgrade" feature is not asked by some newbies coming from the RTS world but mainly by long-time BTR players - and if the BTR players are not hard-core wargamers and so potential buyers of future Matrix games ... then I am not a bloody frogs-eater

Thats right. Comparing this with a RTS is a big joke. After all, didnt a certain Mr. Grigsby program himself such (relative) open upgrade possiblities for WIR, PACWAR and BTR? I guess these games are also kiddies RTS games.

This discussion is so stuipid, since the people against this freedom of upgrade DONT have to use it. They just want to spoil the fun of others, whatever reason they have. God forbid that this game is being enjoyed by someone who has a different playstile or taste.

Me neither, but at least I am a bloody kraut eater [:D]
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by steveh11Matrix »

I see this aspect of the game as broken, broken, BROKEN and it's something I'd like to see addressed before I part with my cash for the game, since the second scenario I'd like to try out would be the main campaign, as the Japanese, to see if - with better high-level decision making - I could do better.

(The first would be a much shorter campaign/operation to get into the game!) :)

As an analogy: In an East Front campaign, if the Germans have Panthers 'in stock', would 2BY3 expect us to keep using PZIV "because they did"? How many players would be flaming the boards over that? :)

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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

(a) Moving aircraft into production before their time by acceleration of production through over concentration.

(b) Coverting Japan's air force into something it was not.

(c) Using 20/20 Hindsight to control choice of Aircraft.

(d) Over-simplification of Japan's headache by consolodation.

You don't see *any* of these as being problems?

Not really.
You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs

The point they are making is the game rules are imposing "arbitrary needs" on them, externally defined by the designers, not by the progression of play to impose someone elses opinion of history on them, in what is game conflict that no longer resembles history at all.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

I think my opinion on all this may well be unique, cause I'd like them (2by3) to drop the research/production/Speer altogether from this game and just give us steady replacement rates a la UV, and tell us how many oil/resurces we have to haul back to Japan each month to keep the country and industry alive.

You don't get oil/resources to Japan - you lose air replacements, shipyards work slower, and you lose political points (perhaps victory points as well). Simplistic, but overall beneficial to the game.

That way we'll get:

a) turns being less time consuming
b) game more enjoyable (relatively more time would be spent on "fun" parts - conquests, combats and military planning then on being Albertoku Speeregaya [8D])

We'll lose:

a) ability to be anal about production and upgrades as per 99% of posts in this thread [:D] Hey, thinking again I'd say this is actually a benefit.

I think the *realistic* benefits to gameplay and mental sanity of the players would far outweigh any loss of "realism". Especially if we adhere to the philosophy "Japan industry was shit anyway, what DO YOU expect, you're doomed" etc.

I guess that's what developers should have done right from the start. Both sides - lets call them "Spooky's Side" and "Frag's Side" would have accepted that without the discussion, and with hindsight the game itself would have been released earlier.

Give us the ability to switch to "steady replacements a la UV" under game Preferences.

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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Mr.Frag »

The point they are making is the game rules are imposing "arbitrary needs" on them, externally defined by the designers,

So what, is that not the choice of every designer? to impose their view on how things work? Just because you happen to not agree with them does not make *their* view and design any less valid.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by Damien Thorn »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Give us the ability to switch to "steady replacements a la UV" under game Preferences.

Oleg

You can add replacement rates for Japanese aircraft with the editor I believe.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

I think my opinion on all this may well be unique, cause I'd like them (2by3) to drop the research/production/Speer altogether from this game and just give us steady replacement rates a la UV, and tell us how many oil/resurces we have to haul back to Japan each month to keep the country and industry alive.

You don't get oil/resources to Japan - you lose air replacements, shipyards work slower, and you lose political points (perhaps victory points as well). Simplistic, but overall beneficial to the game.

That way we'll get:

a) turns being less time consuming
b) game more enjoyable (relatively more time would be spent on "fun" parts - conquests, combats and military planning then on being Albertoku Speeregaya )

We'll lose:

a) ability to be anal about production and upgrades as per 99% of posts in this thread Hey, thinking again I'd say this is actually a benefit.

I think the *realistic* benefits to gameplay and mental sanity of the players would far outweigh any loss of "realism". Especially if we adhere to the philosophy "Japan industry was **** anyway, what DO YOU expect, you're doomed" etc.

I guess that's what developers should have done right from the start. Both sides - lets call them "Spooky's Side" and "Frag's Side" would have accepted that without the discussion, and with hindsight the game itself would have been released earlier.

Give us the ability to switch to "steady replacements a la UV" unde

Sorry, I have no interest in such a game and would never buy such a thing. In fact, since there is already a system which let the Jap Player produce what he likes, just let him also assign the planes to the sqd. as he wishes- so the production system makes a sense.

You people just can go on with the previous system and play as you like, as you can do now and we turn a switch and can do what we like to do. I dont see a problem here.

Oh and shutting down a already implemented part of the game so the "all have to play what I think is historic" have their way is just plain stupid. I guess it did take more then 20 hours to program the industrial code in this game- so there should be some use of it.

I am starting to sound like a parrot:

why is it a problem for some people if some others have a different opinion what to expect from such a wargame? After all they are not forced to play with the new possibilities of upgrading after it would be changed, while we have to play their game and have NO chance to play like we want. Thats pure arrogance and a sun-out-of-my-a++ attitude. If they would implement a flying saucer and elephant archers in this game tommorow to make it interesting for more gamers, I wouldnt care as long as I could switch this feature off and play the game like before. So denying this upgrade change to us by some players is egoism at his best. Maybe someone of this historic experts want a special routine which deletes every game on the users which historical enough in their opinion. What- you have installed HOI? delete it or you cannot play WITP.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by vonmoltke »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

(c) Using 20/20 Hindsight to control choice of Aircraft.

...

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.
You are contradicting yourself here. You blast the use of hindsight in decding what aircraft to deploy, but then mention balancing your production to meet your needs which, by necessity, requires hindsight insofar as knowing the upgrade paths of current squadrons and the arrival date and composition of future squadrons. So, why is the latter OK but not the former?
(d) Over-simplification of Japan's headache by consolodation.

There are 31 unique aircraft types that need to be produced to keep Japan in play with all her many types of aircraft. That is the task you are faced with. Reducing this nightmare to 10 through conversions grossly simplifies your task. That is neither the desire nor the intent of the Developers who went out of their way to make Japan play as painfully realistic as possible within the limited context of what they could do. The Developers also attempted to block research into future aircraft that was unreasonable (against saying they don't want you to go down that path).

If you find that you need the 10 because the 31 is just to complex, please state *that*, it is a far more reasonable line of discussion vs the "I just want to use xyz aircraft because I made them". So what? You made them? The 10+ of the air groups you have will need them anyways.
Overcoming this headache is part of doing a better job than the Japanese actually did. I think one of the flaws of the Japanese war plan was in producing so many different models, much like what the German tank programs have been criticized for.

If the intention was not to allow the player the freedom to improve these decisions, then production should not have been given to the player to control at all.

I think the key issue that screws up the player ability to tweak production and upgrades is research. I like the earlier suggestion of undirected research. It removes the ability for the player to power tech their way to the top line fighters, and appears to remove most of the problems with flexible upgrades.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

One addition:

yes, I am a control freak and when playing the underdog at this scale I want to have a high input and influence what to do and what not- and when I think it is better for my cause that all IJA sqd should fly franks and I have them in high enough numbers, then it should be like that. I dont think that Mr. Frags game with this feature switched off gets any less enjoyable for him.

If I want it historic- then I go and buy a book.

Sorry, thats my opinion and I dont force anyone to play like this.
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
The point they are making is the game rules are imposing "arbitrary needs" on them, externally defined by the designers,

So what, is that not the choice of every designer? to impose their view on how things work? Just because you happen to not agree with them does not make *their* view and design any less valid.

In this case they made their view ambiguous....thus an 11 page thread....
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RE: Aircraft Upgrades

Post by MG3 »

So what, is that not the choice of every designer? to impose their view on how things work? Just because you happen to not agree with them does not make *their* view and design any less valid.

Interesting: if I would write a product with a feature which get such a lot negative response (mixed with some positive) I would do a change. Especially when it is pretty easy to to program (I would understand your point if the community would ask for a complete production system and the game had none, costing a lot of time for implementation) and it wouldnt hurt Group B, because they could use the product like before.

So you can please both groups with a few work and now we discuss already 11 pages why the upgrade path should not be unlocked for players who like to play this way.

If thats not an arrogant attitude, I dont know what it is...
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