Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[tsimmonds]

My problem is that the upgrade paths editable in the scenario and db editors are not flexible enough and will actually cause more focus than a player may want. If I make Oscars upgrade to Tony's, and then to Tojo's then all production of Oscar's ceases when the Tony is available and all Tony's when the Tojo appears. The factories autoconvert. When an upgraded model is available, I can then produce it and only it. On the other hand, I may want to have all 3 around.

I believe it is possible to edit the upgrade path by group. If I understand correctly it is not necessary to make the change you describe here. I could be mistaken though; I have not looked at the editor, this is just based on reading other threads, which might contain misinformation....

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Warspite**

The argument that to change it would make it unhistorical is wrong because its not historical now. Here is a list of fighters and the Sentais that used them. Bold are sentais that upgraded from Nates and Red from Hayabusas.

Nate equipped Sentais = 1, 4, 9, 11, 13, 18, 21, 24, 33, 50, 54, 59, 63, 64, 70, 77, 78, 85, 87, 144, 246.
Hayabusa equipped Sentais = 1, 11, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 30, 31, 33, 48, 50, 54, 59, 63, 64, 65, 71, 72, 73, 77, 101, 102, 103, 104, 112, 203, 204, 248.

Shoki equipped Sentais = 9, 22, 29, 47, 85, 87, 246.
Hien equipped Sentais = 17, 18, 19, 23, 26, 28, 37, 55, 56, 59, 65, 68, 78, 105, 244
Hayate equipped Sentais = 1, 11, 13, 14, 20, 22, 25, 29, 47, 50, 51, 52, 64, 71, 72, 73, 85, 101, 102, 103, 104, 111, 112, 200, 246.
Only 2 Sentais operated the Randy

Okay it didn't keep my colours or bold face from my word document I created, nor allow me to attach it, so here is what you have left over after the upgrades:

Nate equipped Sentais = 4, 70, 78, 144.
Hayabusa equipped Sentais = 21, 24, 30, 31, 33, 48, 54, 63, 77, 203, 204.

We can see that the upgrade paths in the game are meaningless anyway, as there are no where near 34 groups of Hayabusas in WW2 nor anything like 12 Ki-102, and as we can see most surviving Sentais were equiped with the Frank. Its wrong now so whats the deal with letting us use what we build.

Thanks for this!

BTW, you can use BOLD here at the forum but you hav eto do it manually (just select part of text you want to enhance and press the "B" button - same is with underline and "U" button - italics "I" button)...

Leo "Apollo11"

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

My problem is that the upgrade paths editable in the scenario and db editors are not flexible enough and will actually cause more focus than a player may want. If I make Oscars upgrade to Tony's, and then to Tojo's then all production of Oscar's ceases when the Tony is available and all Tony's when the Tojo appears. The factories autoconvert. When an upgraded model is available, I can then produce it and only it. On the other hand, I may want to have all 3 around.

I believe it is possible to edit the upgrade path by group. If I understand correctly it is not necessary to make the change you describe here. I could be mistaken though; I have not looked at the editor, this is just based on reading other threads, which might contain misinformation....

And whatever I set by group is what dictates what I have available in 4 years into the game. I can't predict what I will want in 4 years because too much is unknown.

[Mr.Frag]

That is why I distinguish between "adhering closely to the realities of WW2" and reproducing it. Frag views the amount of resources that Japan has, and the state of her economy as being fixed to historical results.

No, I don't at all, I view them from the *perfect* standpoint with Japan owning every possible resource producer there is (apart from Russia/South Oz/Upper India).

Once I have the *perfect* state of production, I then crunch the numbers and see what can be done.

*Those* are the numbers I use and realistically no one will ever have anything better then that because the game will end off an automatic victory long before you even get Oscars should you manage to do *better* then that.

If you dig back a couple of pages, you will see my *perfect* production numbers with every airgroup still in existance and having it's perfect upgrade completed.

As far as your:

Unfortunately, Frag is muddying the waters. He is using research as a reason not to do this. I have already expressed, numerous times, that I don't think research in it's current form should be in the game at all. I think it should be gone from the game or rewritten. I agree with Frag completely on that point. But to me, they are seperate issues.

The problem is, research can be dealt with as a seperate thread and ultimately can be handled by a house rule: "No research of aircraft other than those at start, and no reassignment of research factories to anything else." Fixing aircraft upgrades, at the very least, requires an OOB change. To be truly effective, it requires code changes.

I guess you just don't see how they are linked. I am not using research as a reason to not do this. I am pointing out that your are choosing to *ignore* research *too* do it which can not be simply done based on the way the game was designed.

If you want to go add an additional upgrade path to the Oscar and change all the starting R&D factories to size 0's, you have removed research from the game and dealt with the #1 complaint of Oscars not upgrading. That can all be accomplished without a single piece of code work.

A pick list to select aircraft + changing the entire way the OOB happens to be represented to not be aircraft specific is a huge recoding effort.

[tsimmonds]

And whatever I set by group is what dictates what I have available in 4 years into the game. I can't predict what I will want in 4 years because too much is unknown.

OTOH you will know what is possible as well as what you will need to have[;)]. I know, same problem as now, but not nearly as ugly as being stuck with OscarIIs....

[MG3]

IMO the problem requires no "fix" and is not an error. For those who understand how to use it and what the production system allows it should work fine. For those who want a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 GW range" for every Japanese squad, play Pacific General and you can have all the 'Axis-X-Plane-Fantasy-Realized' thrill-bytes you want.

Great, now Mr. Diehl is on- everything will go down the drain.

Please answer me my question (which the better players club failed to do): why do you want to force us into a gamesystem which you as "Mr. IKNOWITALL" (as you have show in many other threads) think is the only right thing, when the new upgraderules wouldnt even be mandatory for all players. You could simply play as before.

SO WHATS YOUR FU**ING PROBLEM?

[Mynok]

Here is my suggested changes that would address what appear to be the most aggravating of issues. It would not satisfy everyone, but I believe it would satisfy the majority.

1. Filter the available-to-research planes by a date. Not perfect, because ideally a plane would become available because its predecessor was in production. Designing and defining a precedence list would be far more work and code than we will get. A simple date filter would be easy to do.

2. Edit the upgrade paths to allow more/most/all Nate groups to upgrade Nate-Oscar II-Frank. Or set some to go to the Tony or Tojo. I'm sure plenty of folk have the research materials to set this up reasonably.

A minimalist approach, but it may be something 2by3/Matrix would do.

[MG3]

BTW "Mr." Diehl:

to tell people to play Pacific General or suggest that they want plasma rifles just because they want to use planes which they produced to the GAMES OWN SYSTEM is typical for you. I easily say youre the biggest and most arrogant selfcentered useless asshole on this board.

Maybe you should found the wargamer asshole organisation- you would be a worthy leader.

[ZOOMIE1980]

The question as to what sorts of aircraft a unit may fly is answered in advance. You do not get to wholesale rewrite history and deploy advanced aircraft to lots of units that never had them.
[\quote]

Why not? We are rewriting history with every turn of every game already.

In effect, you get to optimize, to a certain degree, production in a way that allows you to get the right kinds of replacements for depleted units. It's a good way to allow you to fix "ahistorical" problems in equipping units that might come about as a consequence of "ahistorical" choices as regards which units are deployed where, and losses that differ from historical ones.

I fail to understand the need to enforce rigid history on players who are not that interested in playing historically, when the designers gave players the means to significantly alter history in so many areas of the game.

It does not seem ever to have been intended as a way for the Japanese to crank out lots of advanced aircraft in greater numbers earlier than usual.

How do you come by that conclusion? It appears they gave us about 50% of the ability to do just that. The only thing I can conclude is that they were either conflicted as we are in the design room, or failed to realize that an attempt to provide the player a means to "balance" his production after bombing raids and such actually gave them a "warcraft" kind of ability as well.

The people complaining about it seem to fall into two camps: 1. Those who thought the system could be used in that way and lack a means to correct the production mistakes they've made. Maybe you can edit your game-in-progress to restore some balance to your production. 2. Those who seem to think that this capability to address some balancing problems caused by ahistoric losses should be morphed into some sort of Starship Troopers type time-warp that has the Japanese knowing in 1941 which of their 1944 designs will be the best at countering the as-yet-unseen 1943-44 Allied designs.

Yes, that about sums it up. The designers gave them tools to just that, but only about half-way. And that's the crux of the problem.

IMO the problem requires no "fix" and is not an error. For those who understand how to use it and what the production system allows it should work fine. For those who want a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 GW range" for every Japanese squad, play Pacific General and you can have all the 'Axis-X-Plane-Fantasy-Realized' thrill-bytes you want.

And this is where your argument is all wet. The fact this thread is now going on 12 pages indicates this is indeed a HUGE error. Not so much an error in code or even in design, per-se, but an error in communicating a consistant intent to the player. For good or bad, it is quite obvious a significant number of players are demanding the ability to want their phased plasma rifles because the designers gave them the very tools in the game to build them with. As far as I'm concerned, if they can provide the rest (open-ended-on-the-fly-upgrade-paths) with a fairly small amount of work, they should, to make these people happy. Doing that will not in any way detract from the way the "rigid adherence to history fanatics" want to play the game.

I fail to see why, if BOTH crowds could be provided the facilities to play the game in accordance to their view of its intent why it should NOT be done. And it is the not that the "historical fanatics" view of the game is wrong, it is the desire to impose that view on others, when the game clearly allows for that other view, that IS wrong.

[MG3]

Just given up the game.

Maybe some emule users will be happy about the game, since I am not worthy to play it. The would be community surly make everything possible to piss of their customers. First rip offs and scams while buying, then youre being told to be a sissy child wargamer because you critizise some of the features.

[Drongo]

Is it thread locking time already?

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

No, not because of one troll who already got reported by me. [8D]

[tsimmonds]

Just given up the game.

We'll miss you.[8|]

[VicKevlar]

ORIGINAL: MG3

BTW "Mr." Diehl:

to tell people to play Pacific General or suggest that they want plasma rifles just because they want to use planes which they produced to the GAMES OWN SYSTEM is typical for you. I easily say youre the biggest and most arrogant selfcentered useless asshole on this board.

Maybe you should found the wargamer asshole organisation- you would be a worthy leader.

@MG3

I highly, highly suggest you cease the insults and profanity right now. If not.......I shall make you.

Here's what's gonna happen.........you will edit your profile immediately and edit the location. No choice. It will happen asap. Got it?

@all.......the temperature in here better drop fast.

[Marc von Martial]

Okay MG3, everybody can come here and complain about the game or discuss it.

But, and I have allready warned you previously, insulting of other forum members will not be tolerated. Cool down or you will find yourself on a two week vacation.

Emule? Well at least we know where to look at when we find a copy of WITP popping up there.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Just given up the game.

We'll miss you.[8|]

We will? [:D]

[mdiehl]

Please answer me my question (which the better players club failed to do): why do you want to force us into a gamesystem which you as "Mr. IKNOWITALL" (as you have show in many other threads) think is the only right thing, when the new upgraderules wouldnt even be mandatory for all players. You could simply play as before.

I do not see how you have been forced to do anything. The way that I see it Frag has given some pretty coherent explanations as to why the system works the way that it does. You seem to be casting his position as one who advocates a over-restricted dedication to historical events. I know that's not the Frag I've crossed arguments with many times. If anything I am far more a, err, "historical constructionist" than he. My understanding of his point is that people are using the prod system to attempt something that was outside the scope of its intended purpose.

I'm saying I don't see it as Matrix/2by3's burden to recode the thing to provide a feature that they seem never to have intended to provide. It would cost yet more money. At some point game manufacturers have to show a profit or at the least break even.

And if you took my comment about Pacific General as being personally directed or, for that matter, highly insulting, then I apologize. My point was literally that there exist games in which ONE, as the Japanese player, can purchase (through a point system) large numbers of top-of-the-line (over the top in the case of ME262s bought by Japan) late war fighters. There IS such a product available. You've got a choice. But hey, if you keep asking for the change maybe Matrix will give you what you want.

And to Matrix/2by3 I suppose I apologize for mentioning the other product. I just figured it's different enough in scope and old enough that it is not necessarily a competing product. I won't do it again.

[Mr.Frag]

1. Filter the available-to-research planes by a date. Not perfect, because ideally a plane would become available because its predecessor was in production. Designing and defining a precedence list would be far more work and code than we will get. A simple date filter would be easy to do.

2. Edit the upgrade paths to allow more/most/all Nate groups to upgrade Nate-Oscar II-Frank. Or set some to go to the Tony or Tojo. I'm sure plenty of folk have the research materials to set this up reasonably.

Thats exactly what I said in different words [;)]

If you want to go add an additional upgrade path to the Oscar and change all the starting R&D factories to size 0's, you have removed research from the game and dealt with the #1 complaint of Oscars not upgrading. That can all be accomplished without a single piece of code work.

It does not need 2BY3 to do, thats what they gave you an editor for ... Zeroing all the starting R&D is simple, adding an upgrade path for the Oscar is simple.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'm saying I don't see it as Matrix/2by3's burden to recode the thing to provide a feature that they seem never to have intended to provide. It would cost yet more money. At some point game manufacturers have to show a profit or at the least break even.

I also always maintained that is is all solvable via WitP editor.

But I would like that Matrix/2By3 fixes that (official campaigns) because current upgrades (as "Warspite" explained) are also inaccurate...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

1. Filter the available-to-research planes by a date. Not perfect, because ideally a plane would become available because its predecessor was in production. Designing and defining a precedence list would be far more work and code than we will get. A simple date filter would be easy to do.

2. Edit the upgrade paths to allow more/most/all Nate groups to upgrade Nate-Oscar II-Frank. Or set some to go to the Tony or Tojo. I'm sure plenty of folk have the research materials to set this up reasonably.

Thats exactly what I said in different words [;)]

Oops. Honest, I never say you make the first suggestion......[X(]