Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

[Black Cat]

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

[Williamb]

I now have an inspiration to write a essay
"So you want to be a game designer developer"

The rules are

1) you have no time to do anything but work. The grogs dont allow sleep.

2) Yiou must design a game that is COMPLETLY historically ACCURATE plus it must allow for units that never existed to be played in the game.

3) AS a game designer you must remember to curse Microsoft for creating a OS that allows just ANYONE to get online.

4) Even after days and weeks of going over your product SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will find fault with some trivial minor thing.

5) You must always post after being accused of wrongdoing and must be completely polite even if the other person is a total idiot and revels in it.

6) repeat to yourself over and over again "Its JUST A GAME IT JUST A GAME"

7) finally kick back have fun playing drink a few beers and joke about the insanity that is your day.

[brisd]

Thanks Joel for the detailed update. As far as this subject goes, Mogami (as usual) has the most lucid comments concerning Japanese production. The factories are targets people. In the later war, Japan will be subject to massive bombing campaign and great aircraft operational losses. The current Japanese production system allows the player to make adjustments to account for the factory damage and aircraft losses, very true to the war. And that is what we are trying to simulate here, right? I do agree with 2ndACR and others that the upgrade path for many of the Japanese aircraft units could be tweaked and more info released about research limitations. That is my only big problem with the game as stands.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Based on some of the posts here, you'd think that we've killed somebody's first born. We're just trying to make a game here, and a pretty difficult one to make, test, balance and produce. Rip us if you must, but I hope you can at least appreciate the difficulty of producing a game that takes a fast computer 10 days running 24 hours a day just to test a campaign in AI vs AI mode. If we waited for this game to be perfect, there would never be a game. We never claimed it to be perfect. A lot of people worked very hard to try to make this game as good as we could given that we are not Microsoft (nor is Matrix) and do not have the resources to test everything (even if we did, there is the issue of design choices and the difficulty in simulating history when any game is only dealing with a fraction of the true variables).

Now with that said, here's the story on the upgrades. Mike and the testers have been busy trying to fix problems that players have reported. Bugs come first. Upgrades and production were design choices and as such take a back seat. I happened to be out of town from July 31 to August 9 on vacation with my family (they haven't seen a lot of me in the past year). Matrix is busy at conventions and just trying to keep up with this forum is more than a full time job for them, and besides they can't answer regarding design decisions made by 2by3. Again, the bugs have to come first. The upgrades post first appeared on July 30. When I came home on August 9, I had an email that had come in to 2by3 games about upgrades. I sent off a response that night which promptly got posted on page 16 of the aircraft upgrades thread. I hadn't had time to read through the entire thread but saw that my reply got posted. As I haven't learned how to link, I'll copy it below:



Okay guys, this is the reply I got from Joel Billings to a e-mail I sent to 2by3.

As you said, in a big game like this there are some compromises. I can't say what was the driving force on this decision, whether it was the time it would take to provide the interface, the unrealistic nature of allowing easy changes of planes in a non-historical manner, or if it was the desire to avoid the play balance implications of allowing an anything goes upgrade path. I remember that all three came into the equation at the time we were thinking about it. There were so many issues like this that we had to deal with, that I can't remember when or how the decision got made. It's possible that Mike Wood (the patch programmer) will at some point in the future change the system, but I would bet it's pretty low on the priority list given the work involved and the more important needs to fix obvious bugs and other items that come up. Mike and the Beta testers track the Matrix forums and if it's being discussed there, it's likely to come up at some point (if it hasn't already). Thanks for the feedback.

Joel Billings



As you can see, this was before I had even read the forum posts that by this time had filled up 16 pages. When I saw this note posted, I figured I had answered the basics and went back to work. I'm sorry some of you are unhappy with our design, but it was intentional. Now as I said, bug fixing comes first. Once we have a handle on the major bugs, Mike has told me he expects to go back and review the upgrade thread and decide whether he wants to make a change. His recommendation will no doubt be based on the level of interest in a change, the specific suggestions made, and the difficulties involved in making the change. Mike and 2by3 are open to making a change here if the demand justifies it. We can't give you a quick answer as to what will happen, and since bug fixing is first priority and this is a major change, I don't want you all expecting to see a fix for this in the next few weeks. I'm sorry if our "silence" has been misunderstood as us not caring. We do care very much.

Joel

Thanks, Joel. I think that's all a lot of folks really needed. Most are not privey to the inside corporate culture at Matrix. Most didn't or don't know about August being your "MAD" month. Most have no idea 2X3 is a three man company. Most have no idea you guys do not work in a central office made up of "cubes" ala a typical software body shop. Most just need a quick explanatory post by somebody with the Matrix Staff emblem on it to quiet things down a bit. Frequent communication is always a good salve, even if it doesn't contain much meat.

So from this, we can take that this is probably a design level issue, I think most of us knew that. As such, you've got one guy, Mike, doing the coding and his time is 100% tied up fixing bugs. Maybe one other guy, you, or someone else, that might help out. Pry is doing the OOB stuff. Two, maybe three guys, tops, doing it all. That mean's it is likely not going to be altered in a major way ( I can see recoding the AI would be problematic to deal with a new upgrade system). And if it is, we won't see it for many weeks.

In the mean time we have Lemur's major upgrade OOB fix that alleviates SOME of the problem (dead ends at Oscar-IIa's, no Dec 7 2nd Marines, etc...). It appears the developers understand the issues here, even if the betas have yet to get it. Does that essentially end the upgrade thread? Good enough for me. Lemur's scenario #26 is marginally good band-aide for now...

[BartM]

like many, still struggling with the game, learning the vast options it has to offer. I find for myself, with games like these come out (steel panthers comes to mind), I first looked at the editor, the manual and see how the game is "designed". From there, try and play as the designers intended.

Reading all of these posts (there is ALOT now), I can see both sides, but...it does seem that there is a majority thinking that the production is used to alter the way Japan worked.

One thing I havent really seen in the game yet, is the constant struggle between IJA and IJN. At least the production facilities are generic, and not tied to one theater, Home defence, IJA, IJN, Chineese front. One of the major problems with Japan, was Japan herself.

Im still playing the Japaneese as slow as possible, comming back here to read alot on the forums of what people are doing, but so far, maybe it's me, I really don't have a problem with the a/c productions, as long as I can keep everyone happy and filled (large chore). I completely agree, the dead end production lines should be more obvious and pointed out in production so you are not wasting time and energy there. Another problem is seeing into the furture. We know it, but back then, they didn't have a clue they needed the A6M8 as the A6M2 was a brilliant plane (until it actually met 6-8 .50 cal machinegunes)....

I agree that planning it utmost, though I also agree that there are some tools lacking to make that planning more effeciant. Perhaps more detail in the charts where you are able to break down the upgrade/refit paths of planes and ships as well as LCU. This way, you can see where a dead end would come, and adjust your production. Still leaving some to work on Tojo's and Franks, as you can get a few groups out with these, but not investing tons of resources in something that isn't going to come about. (I would defiently use franks as kamakazies... speed is everything).

Also production covers LCu upgrades, would like to see a better interface with a breakdown again in the listings so you can plan to change/add to your vehicle, manpower and armament plants.

Have seen and posted in alot of "what if" threads so far, and the historical outcome. To alot of the degree, using historical items, I would love to be able to attempt to do better, which of course is a huge task for the devs, since programming the enternal struggle of Japan would be near impossible

[Lemurs!]

Hi all,

This is my 'Ban me' speech.

We are, for about the billionth time, not looking for weird production schemes or an all Ki-84 airforce. Those of you who keep making asinine comments like that are just showing how big of twits you are.

Nikademus has comments in another thread like this that shows that he has never played BTR. He talks like he has but he is just spewing shit.

Mogami, for the second time in 4 years i disagree with you. This has been said over and over again, the 244th Sentai did not have written on it 'Only for use by Oscar II's'! That is asinine! You guys try to sound all wise saying 'but by then you won't have many aircraft' or 'you built the wrong types' .

That is bullshit! If i want to build all Ki-36's i should be able to. And now the expected comments from Frag, 'but that is giving Japan abilities they didn't have to totally change production'.

Frag, have you ever played WitP? This was not intended to be rude it is a real question! Have you noticed that Gary put in a cost for retooling? Its a freakin high cost too, although i comletely agree with the cost. Guess what? It keeps you from going too crazy (sucessfully) with Japanese production.
This game doesn't need hidden roadblocks, it has costs to retool a factory. It works already!
Frag just sits here and insults the game system repeatedly, doesn't anyone think that is odd?

If i as the Japanese player cripple the British a little more than normal and thus need fewer Oscars at the front but i am getting hammered by the B24's i would like to build a few more Ki44s. But, i cannot because there are very few Ki44 units in the game. Guess what? That is what the Ki44 was designed for! The Ki44 was started at the same time as the Ki43. It was not built in small numbers because pilots didn't like it; it was built in small numbers because it was never intended to suplant the Oscar, just supplement it!

Oh, before you mention BTR again, i will continue what i said about Nik. He was saying that if we had a BTR upgrade system it would destroy historical reality, we would all be flying Ki-84's/FW190s.

I have played many games of BTR, that never happened in any of them. I, as the Germans, managed once to build Do-335's in '44. Yikes! you say, obviously broken! Well, i managed to build 50 of them. Wow, how exciting! I could not realistically build more WITHIN THE SYSTEM THAT GARY DESIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess what it is the same here. Have a little confidence in Gary's production system and open up the upgrade system to something resembling reality.

Those of you who feel we are wrong and that nothing should be done, you have that perogative.
But, we who are upset about this have a perogative we can use as well, don't buy from a company that does not listen to their customers or improve their games. I have already told many friends who have asked about this to hold off and see if some patchs fix some of the problems.

I have already spotted several errors that have been with this game system since PacWar days. That really blows my mind that so many of the same data management ideas can be reused over the years and cause the same errors.

Matrix can respond to customer concerns or not, that
is their choice, however not responding is how they join the ranks of the failed game companies.

Mike

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Just a suggestion from reading this thread and the other monster upgrade thread.

I think the people who have issues/questions about the upgrade feature for the Japanese, should put together a design document that details exactly what they want to have changed in the system. You do not need the code for this game, just use your experience with the upgrade situation so far in this game and add/change what you guys want a revised system to do. With this you guys could post it and have everybody look at and make suggestions and changes. That way when Matrix is ready to revisit this feature of the game, they can have something concrete and tangible to look at when making a decision.

It is always a good sign when people are argue about a game, it just means they like it, and want it to get better.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Mike,

They did respond about a couple of posts above yours.....

[bradfordkay]

Matrix can respond to customer concerns or not, that
is their choice, however not responding is how they join the ranks of the failed game companies.

I have to point out that Joel HAD responded, on pg 16 of the disturbingly long thread on aircraft upgrades. Perhaps everyone was so tied up in their own arguments, that they had failed to notice his response?

[Oznoyng]

I posted heavily on the a/c upgrades posts. I wanted to make three points:

1. In my view the Matrix response has always been good. They posted on the original thread and they posted here. It has not gone on for a month, as Zoomie suggests. The first post on the 20-odd page thread occurred on 7/30. It is now 8/16. That is barely over two weeks, including a week in which we know the staff was at a convention. During that time, we have seen a half dozen posts by various staff members, including two that refer to having read the thread and suggest the issue will be/is being discussed internally. If you expect a fairly major decision to be made with so little time to debate its effects, stop smoking your shorts. If you don't think they should take the time to consider the effects on the game very carefully, go buy Risk and play that.

2. Eighty dollars is chicken feed for what we got. This is a niche game market. I bought a game for 80 dollars that might sell 10-20,000 copies. Top end, Matrix gross from that is $1.6 million. Now, I buy a game for $50 that sells 500,000 copies. Gross from that? $25 million. Many more people will buy Civilization, Command and Conquer, etc. than will even be aware that WitP exists, let alone buy it. What you can accomplish with regards to support, features, staffing, etc. is entirely different between the two games. Both can make money, but what can be delivered in terms of service, features, and "glitz" are very different. If you are complaining about the cost of the game, you need to recognize that this type of game costs more and gives you "less" than a mainstream game.

3. When you have done better (Zoomie) come back and criticize. Put up or shut up. I understand and agree to some extent with your points, but you have been arrogant and obnoxious in trying to make them. Having source code to what GG did 15 years ago doesn't mean you know how he does it today or who is doing what today. Ultimately, if you want to do better, then do so. If you do, I will buy it.

Ultimately, the decision made about aircraft upgrades will not change whether I play WitP or not. I will play it either way. However, I strongly believe that making some kind of change would make it a better game and more realistically allow for "what if" scenarios.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Hi all,

This is my 'Ban me' speech.

We are, for about the billionth time, not looking for weird production schemes or an all Ki-84 airforce. Those of you who keep making asinine comments like that are just showing how big of twits you are.

Nikademus has comments in another thread like this that shows that he has never played BTR. He talks like he has but he is just spewing shit.

Mogami, for the second time in 4 years i disagree with you. This has been said over and over again, the 244th Sentai did not have written on it 'Only for use by Oscar II's'! That is asinine! You guys try to sound all wise saying 'but by then you won't have many aircraft' or 'you built the wrong types' .

That is bullshit! If i want to build all Ki-36's i should be able to. And now the expected comments from Frag, 'but that is giving Japan abilities they didn't have to totally change production'.

Frag, have you ever played WitP? This was not intended to be rude it is a real question! Have you noticed that Gary put in a cost for retooling? Its a freakin high cost too, although i comletely agree with the cost. Guess what? It keeps you from going too crazy (sucessfully) with Japanese production.
This game doesn't need hidden roadblocks, it has costs to retool a factory. It works already!
Frag just sits here and insults the game system repeatedly, doesn't anyone think that is odd?

If i as the Japanese player cripple the British a little more than normal and thus need fewer Oscars at the front but i am getting hammered by the B24's i would like to build a few more Ki44s. But, i cannot because there are very few Ki44 units in the game. Guess what? That is what the Ki44 was designed for! The Ki44 was started at the same time as the Ki43. It was not built in small numbers because pilots didn't like it; it was built in small numbers because it was never intended to suplant the Oscar, just supplement it!

Oh, before you mention BTR again, i will continue what i said about Nik. He was saying that if we had a BTR upgrade system it would destroy historical reality, we would all be flying Ki-84's/FW190s.

I have played many games of BTR, that never happened in any of them. I, as the Germans, managed once to build Do-335's in '44. Yikes! you say, obviously broken! Well, i managed to build 50 of them. Wow, how exciting! I could not realistically build more WITHIN THE SYSTEM THAT GARY DESIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess what it is the same here. Have a little confidence in Gary's production system and open up the upgrade system to something resembling reality.

Those of you who feel we are wrong and that nothing should be done, you have that perogative.
But, we who are upset about this have a perogative we can use as well, don't buy from a company that does not listen to their customers or improve their games. I have already told many friends who have asked about this to hold off and see if some patchs fix some of the problems.

I have already spotted several errors that have been with this game system since PacWar days. That really blows my mind that so many of the same data management ideas can be reused over the years and cause the same errors.

Matrix can respond to customer concerns or not, that
is their choice, however not responding is how they join the ranks of the failed game companies.

Mike

I will second that! GG as a game designer and balancer is unparelled in the genre. Even back in the Apple/Amiga days his USAAF production system (which obviously forms the basis of his BTR system today) was EXQUISITLY balanced and clever. You paid a HUGE cost to retool and if you weren't careful, and you sold your soul to the uber-plane, you ended up with NO planes of any kind! Same here. Look at what happens when you change a Ki-27 plant to a Ki-43 Ib? YOu lose half your numbers AND they are 100% disabled! Look how long it takes to get even 10 of them producing!

I'd LOVE to play the Jap player, PBEM, that sells his soul to create all Shindens by late 1944. The game would OVER by then.

[Titanwarrior89]

Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game. [;)]

[Titanwarrior89]

I agree MR. CAT ![:D]

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I posted heavily on the a/c upgrades posts. I wanted to make three points:

1. In my view the Matrix response has always been good. They posted on the original thread and they posted here. It has not gone on for a month, as Zoomie suggests. The first post on the 20-odd page thread occurred on 7/30. It is now 8/16. That is barely over two weeks, including a week in which we know the staff was at a convention. During that time, we have seen a half dozen posts by various staff members, including two that refer to having read the thread and suggest the issue will be/is being discussed internally. If you expect a fairly major decision to be made with so little time to debate its effects, stop smoking your shorts. If you don't think they should take the time to consider the effects on the game very carefully, go buy Risk and play that.

2. Eighty dollars is chicken feed for what we got. This is a niche game market. I bought a game for 80 dollars that might sell 10-20,000 copies. Top end, Matrix gross from that is $1.6 million. Now, I buy a game for $50 that sells 500,000 copies. Gross from that? $25 million. Many more people will buy Civilization, Command and Conquer, etc. than will even be aware that WitP exists, let alone buy it. What you can accomplish with regards to support, features, staffing, etc. is entirely different between the two games. Both can make money, but what can be delivered in terms of service, features, and "glitz" are very different. If you are complaining about the cost of the game, you need to recognize that this type of game costs more and gives you "less" than a mainstream game.

3. When you have done better (Zoomie) come back and criticize. Put up or shut up. I understand and agree to some extent with your points, but you have been arrogant and obnoxious in trying to make them. Having source code to what GG did 15 years ago doesn't mean you know how he does it today or who is doing what today. Ultimately, if you want to do better, then do so. If you do, I will buy it.

Ultimately, the decision made about aircraft upgrades will not change whether I play WitP or not. I will play it either way. However, I strongly believe that making some kind of change would make it a better game and more realistically allow for "what if" scenarios.

Ok, so now before anyone can be critical about any facet of a game, they have to have written, marketed, sold and maintained one instead.

Fine, if you have a problem with Windows-XP, shut you yap until you've written your own OS. If you have a problem with Microsoft Excel, shut your pie-hole, until you've written and sold a successful spreadsheet of your own. If you bitch to your bank about a screwed up ATM withdrawl, shut you whining mouth until you've written an ATM reconcilliation program yourself.....


I get it.

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
I get it.

Oh, if that was only true

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game. [;)]

I challenge any anyone, with a 100% unrestricted upgrade path, one where you could upgrade any plane of any type to any other type, to attempt to outfit all your fighter squadrons with Shindens by Jan 1945, to ever last until 1945! You will be dead, probably even against the AI by Oct 1944, if not earlier! Against a human player? You won't make it much beyond 1943!

I trust Gary Grigsby's research/production modelling a LOT more than most of your ilk. So go ahead. Play Japan, and convert every Ki- fighter type factory in the game to Shinden research and every A6MX factory to A7M's and see how far you get? Because that's what it would take to get them both by late 1944....

[VicKevlar]

You know what.....this is getting tiresome.

@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.

[Erik Rutins]

Guys,

Is there really a point to continuing this? Consider this, both sides... you've been heard, we understand and we've replied. We're not under any illusions or misconceptions. When we have more to post on this, we will, but in the meantime I think everyone can agree that addressing bugs comes before these kind of changes. We'll keep you posted and I thank all for their feedback.

For folks like Lemurs who are using the editor to good effect, more power to ya! That's what it's there for and we appreciate your and others' perspective on how we can improve the base game. With that said, there is no way to put out something this complex and have everyone agree with every design decision and every bit of data. Hence, the editor and the fact that we listen and adjust.

If anyone has any doubts on that, just ask some of the customers who've been with us through the UV days - that game ended up quite improved in 2.30 from the original 1.00, but the initial focus was still on bug fixes as it is now. Our first goal always has to be to get every customer working at full speed before we can do upgrades. It's the same as with your ships, the system damage needs to get low enough before the refit becomes available. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Please! Matrix from reading these threads some guys want a non-historical game- I for one want a "Historical" wargame. So if you do change it, please, please don't go into the relm of Hearts of Iron or something like that. Overall I like the War simulation just the way it is. I am afraid with so many wanting ahistorical changes, that the game good become a code of crap. Matrix, you have put out a work of "Historical Art". MY VOTE IS LEAVE IT UNLONE-except for fixing some bugs and other things. I for one am over joyed that their are some who are working hard to make the game better. So lets "NOT" change this game into Japan "nuking" San Francisco with jets and no telling what. If you want a game like that- GO buy a Stratey First game. [;)]

Nothing disturbs me more than the people that have tired to turn "I got 99 Nates in my pool and need aircraft for this here Kamikaze squadron, but can't use the Nates" or "I got some extra Franks, wish I could put one of those Oscar squadrons into Franks" into "Japan gets f18,s Me-262's, and the Atom bomb all before '43" BS. Read the threads, comprehend them, then post.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar


@all........knock of the personal shots. We've said this before and it apparently is not being taken to heart. Therefore, if the insults, etc; continue......examples will be made.

Thank you.

I enjoy the game and try to use this forum to increase that enjoyment. Threads like this with a few people repeating the same points over and over just get in the way and clutter up the board.