Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

[Herrbear]

I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
…Show me the flaw…

System works just fine ...

Just because a system is working as designed doesn’t mean it isn’t flawed.

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

[BoerWar]

One question I do have about production is why are the Toyoda, Kokusai, Isshikawajima, Mansyu aircraft engine types in the game? As far as I can tell there aren't any aircraft in the upgrade path that use them. Are they just a waste production effort for the non-observant Japanese industrialist or are they something I'll need eventually?[:(]

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, If you have 500 Franks in Pool and 15 depleted Oscar groups you screwed the pooch production wise. You knew the Oscar groups needed Oscars but produced Franks instead.
And your saying that is the games fault?

Absolutely! There should be absolutely no question on this point.

If the Japanese could have historically produced more Franks and less Oscars they would have used them. A game not letting the player do that is flawed.

If the Japanese couldn’t have historically produced more Franks and less Oscars, then a game allowing the player to do this is flawed.

[BoerWar]

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)]

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Very few seem able to just install the game and play it as designed and intended.

The designers actually intended for the player to document not only how many groups would use each type of aircraft, but exactly which group would be allowed; and then and only then the player can modify his production?

God, I hope that wasn’t their intent.

[BoerWar]

I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

Is there some basis for your analysis? Vast amounts of Production in 1944 and 45 would have been useless if a few battles in 1942 had gone the other way. If Stalingrad, Midway and/or El Alamien go the other way, perhaps Casablanca/Yalta don't produce a demand for non-conditional surrender. Maybe USSR doesn't even show. In war the most important thing to defeat is the enemy's will to go on. Mid-1942 is known as a turning-point for a reason. For a short period the war was very "winnable" for the Axis powers. If they had stayed on a roll they could have won a negotiated peace. Production didn't win the war for the Allies it just brought the war to a swifter conclusion once the outcome was decided by luck and courage in the Summer of 1942.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
...These guys don`t want to hear facts or gameplay reality, or actual historical limitations, or GG`s view of what the WITP was, they want GG-Wood to enable them do what they want to do when they want to do it...period.

Ok, since I don’t understand… please explain the historical realities that stopped the Japanese from operating the 1st Sentai with Tojo aircraft?

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)]

First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo.
Second, we are taking about historical production rates.
Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft.
Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement.
Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft.

So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

[:)]

[sacorsair]

Ok now I have waited 2 years for this game to come out !!! I am tired of hearing how flawed it is! I didnt see anyone else even trying to produce this !! It is not as if they will seel a million copies of this game maybe not even ten thousand so stop and think about that!! Here is how simple it is. If you dont like the Japanese position in the war and dont like what you can and cant do DONT PLAY AS THE JAPS !!!!!!!! Or go tot the editor and spend all your time trying to fix every fix know to man instead of playing !!!!! I am sure thier leaders on Japanese airfields wanted Tojos and Franks and the rest too but they didnt get them either. Hindsight is 20/20 .

[BoerWar]

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

quote:

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.
First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo.
Second, we are taking about historical production rates.
Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft.
Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement.
Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft.

So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

First, let me say again I'm not opposed to such changes, but they should be limited and such changes should take time to implement. Once a new aircraft is available it takes time to "sell" the military at large that it is truly a better product. It typically takes some sort of "disaster" to convince people that it is time to move on. Maybe they could build something into the game that would allow a unit to decide to upgrade after a period of time has passed since development of a new aircraft. If units begin to experience serious losses in the old aircraft perhaps the timetable could be shortened.

That said I love the game the way it is and don't need these changes to make me happy.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Upgrades and production were design choices…

Difficult choices I would bet. I was told that if I had any issues, regardless of how minor I should voice then hear or they would never have the possibility of being addressed. I will continue to do just that, until a definitive “yes we will address it” or “no we won’t address it”.

Thank you for your patience and for a great game. [:)]


A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"(JAUG). [;)]

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

Is there some basis for your analysis? Vast amounts of Production in 1944 and 45 would have been useless if a few battles in 1942 had gone the other way. If Stalingrad, Midway and/or El Alamien go the other way, perhaps Casablanca/Yalta don't produce a demand for non-conditional surrender. Maybe USSR doesn't even show. In war the most important thing to defeat is the enemy's will to go on. Mid-1942 is known as a turning-point for a reason. For a short period the war was very "winnable" for the Axis powers. If they had stayed on a roll they could have won a negotiated peace. Production didn't win the war for the Allies it just brought the war to a swifter conclusion once the outcome was decided by luck and courage in the Summer of 1942.

The context was meant only concerning WITP. I agree with you that if certain things happened in the course of WWII then any outcome may be different. WITP lives in a vacumn. There is no interaction with the rest of WWII except for the withdrawl of certain British units and even then it is not based on how things might have gone but is base on what happened is what will happen.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

[:D] since we are resorting to four letter words...

Nonsense. If they decide to change it, which I doubt, it depends on how they changed it.

For example, a toggle switch in options that allows ‘free upgrades’ or keeps the ‘present system’. You can choose ‘present system’ and have the same game you got now… what is the problem? You get the game you want and the ‘free upgrade’ group gets what they want.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Guys,

Is there really a point to continuing this? Consider this, both sides... you've been heard, we understand and we've replied...

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

I am saddened if any feel annoyed by the silence of Matrix on this issue. I am the one who decide what, if anything we do about it. I haven't made up my mind, yet. I have been reading the various arguments and have talked with Joel Billings about it. I have had my head buried in code, hunting bugs and generally making adjustments.

After we get most of the bugs fixed, Joel and I will take a close look at it. It does not have priority right now, because it works as designed and we would rather fix the things that do not, first.

Patience Folk...

Michael Wood

I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me I wasn’t annoyed… just wondering what was 2by3/Matrix view on this issue. Now I know.

Either way you decide to go… great game!


A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
...I do not sit here and insult the game system, matter of fact, I've been sitting here taking abuse non stop because I support the system as it sits without a handful of folks screwing it up who don't even invest the time to actually test what they preach because they are too busy preaching...

The game system is great, but with all systems improvement is possible. Pointing that out shouldn’t be taken an insult. Can I program, design, or develop a game of this caliber… not in a thousand years. I lack that talent, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have opinions about certain aspects of the game. Now it is very possible that what I believe is wrong, but shouldn’t I be allowed to voice those concerns/beliefs; and isn’t it in the best interest of 2by3/Matrix that I do? They can look at all the different opinions and options, and weigh it against numerous other factors that most of us will never know… and decide.

Customer feedback is an interesting resource: it comes in all colors from helpful to annoying. The only thing worse than customer feedback… is no feedback at all.


A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

Good idea, where is Subchaser when you need him.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: pompacl
2. Political realities: The IJA and IJN didn't just feud, they actially shot at each other. And both (or at least the army) shot at the politicians who didn't follow the Army (or Navy) party line. I can only imagine what would have happened to some Bureaucrat who told the Army that they were going to have to use a NAVY fighter just because it was better. (Probably the same thing that would happen if the Bureaucrat told the Navy that Zero production had to be cut to provide more resources to build Oscars for the army[:)]).

Isn’t this a Strawman? Virtually every proposal made has been restrictive, especially regarding Navy/Army aircraft.

One of the early complaints was that pilots flying Oscar IIs can use Franks if available. Both are Army fighters. Historically, if the Japanese had 10,000 extra Franks and no Oscar II available they would have switched the pilots over to Franks. Of course historically, the Japanese were unable to either build or retain enough aircraft to convert every group to Franks even if they wanted to.

In the game, the Japanese player is allowed to modify production levels if he has and is willing to spend the resources, plus a skillful player might experience fewer losses that were experience historically. The Japanese player should be restricted from using these aircraft?

It seems to me the entire purpose to having limited upgrade paths is to try and keep a historical flavor to the game. In Pac War it was necessary for ‘House Rules’ to stop every Allied unit from using P-40s, so while I applaud the intent of ‘fixed upgrade paths’ I wish for a more flexible system.

Historically, the upgrade paths of each groups was determined by a multitude of factors, include the combat situation. Since it is unlikely that games will match the historical situation that factored into which Nate group upgrade along which path, shouldn’t the player be allowed choose which path to take?

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: hithere
… The game is out. I can not see any company basically re-creating any game. it took them 3 years to get this game out. there is no game company that will do something like that...but this company does listen to suggestions.....it is one of the reasons i like 2by3/Matrix so much....you can acually "talk" to the developers.

Agreed. I keep waiting for them to say, “No we are going to recode for this”. Mind you, this isn’t what I want to hear, but realistically the fact the haven’t dismissed it out of hand is very impressive.