High Altitude Bombing

[satisfaction]

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I've noticed that my B-17e's have uncanny accuracy from 35,000 feet. I have about 50 based out of Port Moresby in June '42, set to daytime bombardment (Rabaul) from 35,000 feet (above the zero's). About half are attacking the port, the other half are attacking the airbase. Every turn they absolutely smash 6-8 ships in harbor (as many as 30 hits on some battleships), and score well over 100 runway hits. I've completely shut down Rabaul in only a week. It seems more like 50 B-52's dropping JDAMS...the amount of destruction is incredible.

[DrewMatrix]

Is Fog of War on? (The pilots may be giving you overly optomistic reports). Turn AI off, run a turn Head to Head, look at the Japanese side and see how much damage they are really doing.

What difficulty level AI? (or is this Head to Head)

What is the experience of the pilots?

[satisfaction]

I don't have my game in front of me but I can give some general details. The pilots are about 56 experience, FOW is on, difficulty is historical. When I had these same bombers flying lower level attacks, they took losses and the results were about what I expected (destoyed 10-20 planes on the ground, with 20-30 runway hits). I know the results are impressive (even with FOW) because the airfield is totally out of commission, and after a couple weeks delay the list of ships sunk in Rabaul harbor is most impressive (I even bagged the Yamato with a carrier strike). With the exception of my carrier attack, ships are being sunk by 500lb bombs, so I know its the B-17s. Is this just a fluke of my game....I'm going back to an old save and imposing a house rule that B-17s need to fly lower. It would be nice to know if anyone else has seen this (is it just a gap in the code)? Just seems like every single bomb dropped hits.

[m10bob]

My B-17's can't hit anything at any altitude!!.(Port Moresby,4/1942),scenerio 16?

[DrewMatrix]

There is a lot of variablity in game results. I guess that could happen. I have never had success anything like that with level bombers.

Replaying the same save will likely give the same result, BTW. The save includes the random number seed (so you can't just replay a turn until you get a result you like).

I suspect you will not have similar success in the next year of play [:D]

[Black Cat]

ORIGINAL: satisfaction

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I've noticed that my B-17e's have uncanny accuracy from 35,000 feet. I have about 50 based out of Port Moresby in June '42, set to daytime bombardment (Rabaul) from 35,000 feet (above the zero's). About half are attacking the port, the other half are attacking the airbase. Every turn they absolutely smash 6-8 ships in harbor (as many as 30 hits on some battleships), and score well over 100 runway hits. I've completely shut down Rabaul in only a week. It seems more like 50 B-52's dropping JDAMS...the amount of destruction is incredible.

I sure would love to see a save game file or Screen shot of this one if you have it . [:D]

I have NEVER seen high Level Bomber hit ships in Port Attack and I don`t see how you can support 50 B-17`s in PM in June ` 42 on a size 4 airfield and get more then 7 to fly at any one time , if at all.

[dtravel]

<raises his hand> Yes, I believe that was me who started a whole long involved thread on Land-Based Air because I couldn't get B-17s to fly out of Port Moresby. I wanna know how Satisfaction is managing it.

(Speaking of which, I think I'll repost my LBA checklist, since that thread seems to have died and been forgotten.)

[satisfaction]

PM is size 8 on June 6, 1942. 298 Aviation support, 123,558 supplies. I focused on defending and building up this base, but not at the expense of everything else. There are 3 B-17 groups based there:

11 BG 10 operational/42 damaged 67 exp
19 BG 13/35 69 exp
43 BG 14/35

here is the last combat report...which shows the amount of destruction these boys are causing...FOW is on but still this is unbelievable!
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 44

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 16, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
160 casualties reported

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 238
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 35000 feet

The Yamato is on the bottom...with 28 other ships from 500 lb bombs in the last three weeks. Got to love those JDAMS [:D] Japanese aircraft and their ability to use the base is finished.

[satisfaction]

As to how I got PM to size 8 (scenario 16) by June 42...I only expanded the airfield. The engineering units in the base are:

110 RAN Base Force
112 RAN Base Force
808 EAB
51 Aviation Rgt.

(PM is actually a 99% size 7 as of the attack above)

[byron13]

I also managed to build up PM similar to satisfaction. The Japanese have never made a serious push for PM (historical AI setting), so it wasn't very hard. Instead, they've fallen on their sword trying to take Timor.

[Mr.Frag]

Those are just crappy B-17's. Look at the payload on a B-29 [:(]

[satisfaction]

If this is what B-17's can do at 35,000 I'm looking forward to what B-29's can do at 33,600?? Did the 17e have a higher ceiling than the 29? Just looked in the database and saw that. Anyway 12 bombs x 44 planes = 528 bombs....looks like my accuracy is well over 50% hits. Who needs the A bomb[8D]

[Black Cat]

I set up a H to H Game with the Tutorial Scenario so I could see actual results, and Bombed Saipan with the 2 B-29 Groups for one month about every 4 days out of 7. These were size 9 airbases with over 200,000 supply in each.

I was hitting it with up to 90 B-29`s at 25,000 feet with Port Attacks and Airfield attacks and Ground Attacks.

The result was I could NEVER completely close down the runways and eliminate all the Japanese Sqdn`s. AC, who were still flying missions ( with a very few AC ) at the end of the month when there were about 20 + AC left.

I barely made a dent in the Ground units, who lost a few Squads and 2 Guns [X(].

I at most got the Port down to 50 %.

This, with at least 1440 sorties by2 B-29 Groups`s with good exp. Pilots. and high rated leaders.

So something is wrong with your B-17`s or my B-29`s or something else is going on [;)]


Just FYI.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... %25A8%25BA


From dtravel:

Okey-dokey. It took less time than I expected so here is my LBA Bomber Checklist.

Note: this listing is for Land-Based Air units only! Carrier based air units are not subject to many of these conditions.

This listing is for Offensive Missions (p. 122) only. (Airfield attack, Port attack, Naval attack, Ground attack, Sweep, Recon.)

Any page numbers listed are the printed numbers at the bottom of the manual page. Not the .pdf file page count number. FRD means Fractions Rounded Down; FRU means Fractions Rounded Up.

References to 'morale checks', 'experience checks', and 'leadership checks' are assumed to be a d100 roll against the stated attribute. Presumably if the roll is <= the attribute then the unit passes the check. But this is an assumption. How this check is actually carried out is never stated in the documentation.

Prerequisites are conditions that must be met for a mission to be attempted at all. Once all the prerequisites are met, the number of aircraft that will actually fly is determined by subtracting from the number of 'Ready' aircraft in the unit as listed in Limitations. Finally, once you have gone thru all of that, your digital pilots may still not be able to complete the mission for any of the reasons listed under Aborts.

Some Prerequisites and Limitations have the same number. This was done when the condition was the same but the exact effects varied depending on the situation. Prerequisite #1 is an example, the minimum number of aircraft is dependant on it being a day or night mission.


PREREQUISITES:
1) (Day missions only) A minimum of two (2) ready aircraft in the unit. (p.124)
1) (Night missions only) A minimum of six (6) ready aircraft AND a minimum unit morale of 50. (p.126)
2) Target must be within unit's extended range. (p.124)
3) If the unit's morale is < 50, unit must pass a morale check to attempt a mission. (p.126)
4) The initiating airfield must be greater than size 1 (except for Recon). (p. 134)
5) The air unit must agree to fly the mission. Some of the factors affecting whether a unit will agree to fly a mission are covered in rule 7.2.2.12 (p.131).
6) Escorting fighters. The reference to this is highly confusing and can be interpreted many ways. A clarification on this is required. It has been stated that there is a maximum number of escorts that can be required. If that max is met, then the ratio of CAP:escorts becomes irrelevant.
7) Airfield damage must be less than 20+(Size*5) (p.165).

LIMITATIONS:
1) (Level Bombers Only) An experience check. Failure reduces the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.127)
2) (Level Bombers Only) A leadership check. Failure reduces the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.127)
3) (Level Bombers Only) A morale check. Failure reduces the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.127)
4) (Level Bombers Only) Being outside the command radius of a friendly Air HQ will reduce the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.127)
4) (Non-Level Bombers) Being outside the command radius of a friendly Air HQ will reduce the number of aircraft that will fly by 10% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.127)
5) (Level Bombers Only) If the base's airfield is below a minimum size (determined by 4 + (aircraft type's max load/6500) FRD) then Level Bombers :
. a) Will fly no farther than Normal Combat Range (no Extended range missions) (p.128)
. b) Will carry a payload as though they were flying at Extended Combat Range (p.128)
. c) Will suffer increased Operational losses. (p.133)
6) If the number of aircraft at the base exceeds airfield size *50, reduce the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.165)
7) If the number of aircraft at the base exceeds airfield size *100, reduce the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.165) (This is in addition to Limitation #6.)
8) If it is winter in a Cold Zone, reduce the number of aircraft that will fly by 25% of the ready(?) aircraft. (p.173)
9) (Non-Level Bombers) If base supplies are not >= base requirement, a maximum of 75% of the ready aircraft will fly (p.190).
9) (Level Bombers Only) If base supplies are not >= twice base requirement, a maximum of 75% of the ready aircraft will fly (p.190).

ABORTS:
Once it has been determined that the unit will fly a mission and how many aircraft will participate, the mission may be aborted by any of the following (note: the turn processing display at the bottom of the screen will show messages if either of these applies):
1) Poor Weather. If either the initiating or target hex is experiencing bad weather (indicated on the map by a cloud symbol if "Show Clouds" has been set in Preferences) there is a chance the mission will not fly at all.
2) Navigation. There is a chance that poor navigation or an inability to find the target will cause the mission to fail. Factors affecting this are listed in rule 7.2.2.14 (p.132). In addition, Level Bombers flying from a too small airfield (see Limitations, above) will have an increased chance of this.


VERY LOW ALTITUDE ATTACKS:
If an air unit's altitude is set to 100 feet, then special rules and considerations come into play. See p.129-130. Among these are:
1) Naval attack missions will attempt "skip bombing" of their targets. Generally, should only be attempted by units with a minimum experience of 60.
2) Heavy known flak at the target may cause the unit to abort and not fly at all.
3) TFs made up of only Barges and/or PT Boats can only be attacked by fighter-bombers OR air units with an altitude set to 100 feet. (Fighter-bombers are not required to have their altitude set to 100 feet to attack these ship types.)


NOTE ON AVIATION (AV) SUPPORT:
AV support is not required to launch a mission. However, it is required to keep planes in a Ready state so they can fly and to repair any planes damaged during a mission. So air units recently moved to a base without AV support can fly a mission but are unlikely to be able to recover from it to effectively fly a second.


HINTS, RUMORS AND INNUENDO:
Some players have concluded or claim knowledge of additional, undocumented, conditions that can limit or prevent offensive missions. None of these are confirmed! If anyone reading this can CONFIRM the condition, please provide the writer with supporting evidence so that this list may be updated. Many of these appear to be based on players' experiences with other games.

a) Level Bombers have a reduced range for Ground Attack missions.
b) Level Bombers will not fly at all from undersize airfields. (see Limit 5.)
c) Ground Attack missions require the target to have an unknown minimum Detection Level.
d) Having too many Limitations apply can cause the unit to not fly, even if the math does not reduce the number of aircraft to zero.
e) The Unit Commander must have a minimum Leadership value (60?).

[Fallschirmjager]

I posted this a about a month back and everyone said everything was ok....

I murdered ships in port with B-17's

[Maliki]

ORIGINAL: satisfaction

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I've noticed that my B-17e's have uncanny accuracy from 35,000 feet. I have about 50 based out of Port Moresby in June '42, set to daytime bombardment (Rabaul) from 35,000 feet (above the zero's). About half are attacking the port, the other half are attacking the airbase. Every turn they absolutely smash 6-8 ships in harbor (as many as 30 hits on some battleships), and score well over 100 runway hits. I've completely shut down Rabaul in only a week. It seems more like 50 B-52's dropping JDAMS...the amount of destruction is incredible.

Gotta love those 17's(and area bombing)[;)]

Even if the reports you are getting are not accurate within several months Rabauls airfield will be a ghosttown.Seriously though,most of the damage is only temporary,you have to have a long term comitment to shut down Rabaul.Try to plan your raids to coincide with landings or operations within her air range as any heavy bomber raid will shut her down from a week or two,and if your not carefull you'll get burned thinking she's out of the picture[:-].Once you get a couple more Bomber groups stationed near her,and just fly high,half your problems in the area are over.The only bad part is the amount of down time these groups need between missions,so plan carefully and happy hunting.*

*Even if youscore 20 odd or more hits upon a BB in port doesn't mean she's out of the picture.With only 500 lb bmb hits they are going to be back at you in only a matter of time.Trust me[:@]

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: satisfaction

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I've noticed that my B-17e's have uncanny accuracy from 35,000 feet. I have about 50 based out of Port Moresby in June '42, set to daytime bombardment (Rabaul) from 35,000 feet (above the zero's). About half are attacking the port, the other half are attacking the airbase. Every turn they absolutely smash 6-8 ships in harbor (as many as 30 hits on some battleships), and score well over 100 runway hits. I've completely shut down Rabaul in only a week. It seems more like 50 B-52's dropping JDAMS...the amount of destruction is incredible.

Do you get this result at lower altitudes (20-25k)? Just wondering if there is something wrong happening at extremely high altitudes based on other player comments that indicate your bombers' hit rates are unusual.

[frank1970]

I only wonder why it is possible to sink mighty BBs with 500 pound bombs but not with 250kg ones (hint: 250 kg are slightly heavier!).

[dtravel]

Hey! That's MINE! [:'(]

Actually the thread uncovered an undocumented 8th Prereq. that I added. I posted the updated list earlier this evening in the War Room sub-forum.

[soeren01]

There was a similar bug in BTR, where B-17's flying at max height got a nearly 100% hit rate. IIRC a 16bit variable was used for altitude, wich allowed for a maximum altitude of 32768. For anything flying higher, weird results where coming up.