Ver 7.0 is a Fairy Tale...

JYGamer · Post by **JYGamer** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 3:52 am

I just read this thread for the first time. I will not get into the various guns' penetration and various armor amounts. However, I have played SpW@W and SPWW2 since the first versions of each came out. I always play the Soviets against the Germans. In SPWW2, my Soviet tanks even T34's have always had a tough time against any German tank of the III version or higher. The German gunners and guns are better, expecially the 50L60.
In the older versions of SPW@W, even up to version 6.1, I thought that playing the Soviets was easier than in SPW@W. The earlier versions I would rout the Germans easily. In latter versions, it became more difficult. But never as difficult as in SPWW2. I have not yet played V 7.0 as the Soviets versus Germans. But, if it is harder to play as the Soviets, this seems to be more in accordance with SPWW2 and even SP1. Usually in scenarios of 1943 and beyond I kill more Panthers and Tigers with infantry assaults than Soviet tank fire.
Also, keep in mind that SPW@W is just a game and can never perfectly simulate armored combat. I sort of like the challenge of playing with the inferior tanks, gunners who can't shoot well at long range and unreliable infantry, but lots of each. Sometimes you lose, but a lot of times the numbers overwhelm the Germans.
Bearing in mind that in WWII, the Soviets always lost a lot of men and equipment even while winning the war, the game seems somewhat accurate. Remember the Soviets lost 100,000 men taking Berlin in 1945.
Just my $.02

achappelle · Post by **achappelle** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 4:15 am

Mikimoto, if this game is so out of whack, and Matrix is so stupid, why play the game, why not just bugger off and quit complaining about a free game that has about a million man hours invested by Paul, WB and crew. If you can do better, then do better.

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 4:40 am

Originally posted by Aleksandr Morozov:
Mikimoto, if this game is so out of whack, and Matrix is so stupid, why play the game, why not just bugger off and quit complaining about a free game that has about a million man hours invested by Paul, WB and crew. If you can do better, then do better.

Don't put words in my mouth that i haven't pronounced, please. I never said "Matrix is so stupid". I complain about v7 and the Oob modifications and the way some people defend it.

AlvinS · Post by **AlvinS** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:22 am

Mikimoto

Alvin and Inp4668, read my posts carefully please. If you win over your impulse of defending v7.0 at all costs, you can find some ideas behind my "impolite" words.

I do not have a problem with your original post. If you have an issue with the OOB this is the place to discuss it. All Paul asked was to give him specific information on what you want changed. You said that it was his job to research the information not you. Paul did research the information that is in the OOB. It may be incorrect or not to your liking but he did not pull the numbers out of thin air. If they are wrong, then tell him exactly what is wrong and where you got your information so that he can justify changing anything. Should he drop all other projects that he is working on just to fix one problem you identified? Help him out. Matrix has done a great job on SPWAW. Just look back to version 1. And its free. I do not doubt that you are very knowledgable of WWII equipment and the game itself, but your approach to this matter has been anything but helpful. In my job if I Identify a problem, my boss expects that I have at least thought of a possible solution before I bring it to him.

Constructive critisism is good but don't insult the very people who give so much time and effort to provide us with this great game.

Regards

AlvinS

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:24 am

I am sorry again and back here Mikimoto (who is my first Loyalist I have to say this to proove I respect this guy !!!) , well to say that speaking needs some diplomacy...also it needs some care because here it's not in discussion what you say about some nations overrated or not..but the way you explained your point !

The version 7 comes from a long period of hard working and it can't be reduced to this problem !For instance it introduces the first step towards one another big ,new ,revolutionary feature achieved by SPWAW since SP that is a sort of two players campaign..
still limited , it's true but the first step !

You are adult and easy to understand that when you do something you can make some mistakes..
you also know that any data coming from WWII is far to be absolutely true...better to say that "SOMEONE SAYS THAT OR WRITES THAT"...right ?
History is full of things that are told under different perspective..ask an Italian or a Japanese or a Chinese or a Greek ecc.ecc. a Polish..everyone has his own reasoning...it's called maybe politics in your language..
I don't know..remember I am mangling Ruxiooooous!

Now think to this situation..you do a work..maybe you do your best to make it perfect...
(consider that I firmly can't believe MAtrix decides to volountarily give any advantage to some nations against the others)

Now one of your friends comes out from the crowd and says some criticisism in a way that emphasizes your mistakes and forgets everything else..

How do you react ?
Do you really spend your time hearing such fellow ? I do not think you would give any credit to them especially if you believe in your work and you know how much it was worth to you ...(nevertheless you had more than an answer from Paul ...)

I think you would like to have some criticism but please try it in a constructive way..
how can you say your first post is constructive ?

Fairy tails , ahahahahahaha ecc.ecc.

I do not think that could be a good starting point..again I say "diplomacy" to make your ideas go ahead..
Help your listener to agree with you..

That should have been the purpose of your posts!
This way your purpose seems to discredit their work !

Is this your aim ?

I do not think so..then let's go over this
and start to look if some agreement may become possible about these tanks...

remember also again that any truth or good idea not always may see the light...
I too had my suggestions..some of them were easily accepted..some others had been refused..
I was given the same 'official' reply about
them..maybe the same official answers that made you angry..
sometimes I had not any answer..
I never investigated too deep about the answer..maybe it was a really poor idea , maybe they didn't like it , maybe it was too complicated , maybe it was very good but too expensive in therms of implementation...

I am so grateful to Matrix for all the other goodies provided in SPWAW since SP that are real concrete long and good time of gaming since SP that I never thought to ridiculize Matrix in any way , especially after they did once again a work for free..especially if I can change my settings with a powerful editor and a large amount of buttons..

That's all
Bye

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:36 am

Originally posted by Charles_22:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the numerous tests Ive run, the PZII series tanks, destroy t34 from front with ease UNTIL they run out of apcr ammo then its a different ballgame.
.

Quit pickin on me charles!! LOL
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">
The apcr is makin the difference here i think, not the gun or armor changes is all I think I was saying <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> LOL

gorgias96 · Post by **gorgias96** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:45 am

SPWW2, SP1...??? What kind of argument is this?? I have played close combat and east front (the WaW is clearly better of course) and in both of them the germans are underated And????
Well I want a historically accurate wargame and being the WaW the best wargame i know at present i don´t want it deteriorate...

Well Do u think that the v7 is more accurate than the v6.1??? Do u think that new T34s are better tanks than Pz III??
Then Why the germans officers informed about the problems to take out the medium and heavy soviets tanks with their Pz IIIs???

------------------------------------------------

Dicho esto estaría muy bien Miki ke buscases algunos comentarios o testimonios al respecto como el ke aportó svennair o como se llame. Yo no tengo apenas bibliografia al respecto jejeje y como me pidan ke transcriba algunos voy listo jejejeje
Pero ya te digo estoy harto de oir en documentales y demas (casi todos americanos curiosamente) como los alemanes se kejaban de ke las pasaban canutas si aparecian los KV-1 o T34 en escena. Incluso en la batalla de Stalingrado ke ya tenían capacidad antitanke suficiente para likidar cualkier tanke sovietico......

richmonder · Post by **richmonder** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:12 am

Go away for a 3-day weekend and come back to this...

Wot a crock o' crap...

Who the hey has the balls 'n' arse in place o' brains to continue this thread past this post?

Figmo · Post by **Figmo** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:36 am

Geez - I can't keep up with all of this. It does surpise me that so many are upset because the changes are being questioned - I put in my time and listened to enough comments from most of you that are saying "live with it" or something like that - that it's your turn to listen without over reacting - Paul Veber excepted of course - he's listened to more than me for sure. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Sooo, to be as specific as I can and at the same time generalize - I know that's an oxymoron - The Russian armor protection was decreased by 5 to 10 units across the board while the German Armor was increased by about the same. That by itself may have been OK but then the penetration of the Russian guns was decreased while the Germans was increased - again - by itself that might have been Ok - but the double change is what has thrown everything off. Actually - I liked the values where they were in Ver. 6.1.

And one other minor thing - to increase all the vehicles movement was not good either - IMO - I understand that they have that capability - but how often in combat and on the European roads at the time did they really go that fast - and the game doesn't account for turns - I know in my car I'd have a hard time going over 30 MPH in most European towns today yet many 1940's vehicles in the game are going much faster than that on 40's vintage roads. Again, what was used in Ver. 6.1 is at least acceptible.

Figmo · Post by **Figmo** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:42 am

Originally posted by richmonder:
Go away for a 3-day weekend and come back to this...

Wot a crock o' crap...

Who the hey has the balls 'n' arse in place o' brains to continue this thread past this post?

I didn't see this before I posted but had to say it's the worse try at shutting people up I have ever seen - if you don't like what people are saying - stay away from this thread - you DO NOT have to read it - but don't start insulting people - that shows more lack of brains than any post I've read so far.

kao16 · Post by **kao16** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 7:42 am

RE: Mk IIIs vs T34s.

I did a few simple tests of my own.

Human control of both sides.

Deployed in opposing lines about 40 hexes apart (outside visibility until Soviets move half max distance)

June 1941, visibility 32, weather 3, hitting reset to 200%. Base quality 70%, National characteristics etc off. Totally clear battlefield (no terrain).

Tactics used:
1) Germans move full move.
2) Soviets move as far as possible (receiving op-fire).
3) Germans continue to move to get close/flank T34s (receiving op-fire)
4) Soviets are able to knock out Germans so stay stationary so as to maximise shots (continue to receive op-fire)
5) return to 3 and repeat.

The T34/41 vs various MkIIIs
Test one.
4 platoons of 3 (12) T34 vs 5 sections of 2 MkIIIG (10).
Result 10 dead Mk IIIs, no dead T34s

Test two.
12 t34s vs 2 platoons 5 MkIIIG (+10% for elite)
Result: 3 dead T34s, 10 dead MKIIIGs

Test three.
12 T34 vs 5x2 MKIIIh (4 rounds HVAP)
Result: 1 dead t34, 10 dead MKIIIh

Test 4.
12 T34 vs 2x5 MKIIIh (+10%, 4 rounds HVAP)
Result: 5 dead T34, 10 dead MKIIIh

Test 5.
12 T34 vs 5x2 MKIIIj (6 rounds HVAP)
Result: 1 dead T34, 10 dead MkIIIj

Test 6.
12 T34 vs 2x5 MkIIIj (+10%, 6 rnds HVAP)
Result: 5 dead T34, 9 dead, 1 abandoned MkIIIj

Conclusions:
If the Germans can get within 10 hexes before being destroyed then the HVAP rounds can knock out T34s.

If the Germans can fire halted from cover at oncoming T34s (at 10 hexes or less) then the ROF advantage (4-6 vs 1-2 of moving T34s) mean that they can just about clean up with one turn of opfire and then their own fire turn.

If the Soviets can see the Germans from about 25 hexes they can shoot from the halt (improving hit probability and increasing available shots) with a high probability of penetrating. Germans are forced to continue closing the distance and many died in my tests trying to cross the boundary from 11 hexes to 10.

Unless they can get flamk hits shooting at beyond 10 hexes is a waste of time for the Germans. They can get a lot of hits but with little damage.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 8:02 am

Mikimoto, you need some examples... some data. Something to get a decent intelligent dialog up and running. Someone posted earlier that they want to know why the German command complained about killing T34's with PzIII's. Have you put a PzIII up against a T34 in SPWAW (6.1, or 7.0)?? It's not fun to be the PzIII. That doesn't mean the PzIII can't kill a T34. People are so black and white about stuff. Everyone MUST understand that this is an issue of degree. I'm a big fan of Soviet strength, but whoever spoke of Russia taking major losses in men and tanks is right on the money. History, as absorbed by the amateur, is always inaccurate to some degree. People make conclusions that are too cut and dry. The reality is much grayer. If you're on the field and you've just spent a month tearing into whimpy old Soviet armor to bump into a T34 you'd shit your pants. (I've said that before, I know). Kao's test case is a great example of testing a theory. Its results speak of a serious advantage the T34 has over the poor PzIII. Just cause you get pissed off that A pzIII or two are able to destroy your 'should be invincible' T34's is more a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time than it is an issue of the oob's being akin to a 'fairy tale'. What people have to more than anything else is calm down.

I agree that if so much was done to change the balance between Germany and Russia that it is possible that it went too far. If it did, it probably did so by very little. That's an error that in no way warrants this kind of spastic, furious posting pattern that we're seeing on this thread.

Tomo

BruceAZ · Post by **BruceAZ** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 8:07 am

Huh? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 8:16 am

Greetings. I have no objection to the PZ-III's being able to kill T-34's/ I also realize one or two tests do not prove any thing since they may not in fact represent the norm. So I will draw no conclusions my self but merely post results as I complete tests. Those who know me will accept that I am not trying to critize the game but for those who do not I will tell you that I consider SPWAW and Matrix as party mine. I was on the scenario design and test teams for both MCNA and Watchtower. I have had version 7 for months but was mainly concerned with Japanese and Marine/USA OB's and had not used the German Soviet ones.
Latest battle July 43
10x PZ-IIIL moving at range 15
10xT-34 not moving on a level 1 hill

T-34's scored hits but no damage 1 T-34 had turrent ** hit 1 T-34 had damage and crew bail out

range less then 10 T-34 score 1 suspension hit and 4 no effects
6 T-34 destroyed crew that had bailed out destroyed

It seems to be the OP fire that does the most damage to T-34's (since all destroyed T-34's were hit after they fired) but their OP fire ineffective. Is this a result of crew quality?

Just did a quickie 12 PZ-IIIL versus 12 T-34 m43 figured I try a newer T-34

I only used OP fire with T-34 8 X PZ-III destroyed 1 crew bail out
2 X T-34 destroyed 2 crew bail outs.

I was never concerned about Germans killing T-34 but was a little worried about T-34 not killing PZ-III (I have never been nutty enough to want to fight Tigers with T-34's)

Everything I have seen in last 4 tests would support tactic of Soviet staying beyond 10 hex range and letting Germans move. Soviet should only use OP fire since if they shoot they recieve 2-3 counter shots. Soviet player will have to not be in a hurry. (let infantry go ahead with tanks staying outside 10 hex range.) Aginst the larger German tanks Soviet has always had to do this.

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

richmonder · Post by **richmonder** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 10:14 am

Figmo - I disagree with your statement. In reality I wasn't insulting anyone in particular. I had one person with a somewhat insulting attitude in mind, but I wasn't going to come out and flame. The fact is, a number of rebuttals in this thread have been good and contained relevant points. But it had gotten to the point of endless circling lately. Time to move into a new thread where new points are made in a lighter atmosphere - that's all I was shooting for.

If it insulted you that was not my intent and I apologize. But I doubt it was the worst attempt at stopping an argument that you've ever heard - there have to be worse ones than that!

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 11:39 am

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
If you want rudeness look for Warrior replies.

Pilgrim, you haven't seen my rudeness yet. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

achappelle · Post by **achappelle** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 11:57 am

Some notes of Historical significance to this thread, taken from Steven Zaloga's Soviet Tanks in Combat 1941-1945, T28, T34, T34/85 and T-44 Medium tanks.

June 1941 Russian tank forces totalled 23106 tanks, of which the bulk were T26 and B-series, but also c.600 T28s and 40 T35. Russian losses from june 41 to dec 41 totalled about 20500, pretty much taking care of all the obsolete T26s and Bs. The inventory was 7700 in Jan 42 and 20600 by Dec 42 despite massive losses. The sov losses were about 15000 to german losses of 2648 tanks or roughly 6 to 1, nearly the same ratio as in 41. We can assume that because most if not all old obsolete tanks were destroyed in 41, that the vast majority of tanks produced, and lost in '42 were T34s. Now you could say that a lot of losses were due to AT guns, and such, but AT guns only really come into play when you're on the defensive. In 42 the blitzkrieg was full bore, with the exception of the counterattacks such as aroound Kharkov. The T34 was designed by the Morozov bureau to address three things: armour, speed and firepower. Things like radios and proper vision were unheard of, and the commander had to double as a gunner because of the turret layout. Add to that the total tactical ignorance of the Sovs with using their tanks effectively, and history has shown what happens, you lose tanks, and lose them to what may be "weaker" tanks on the surface, but obviously were good enough for the job.
None of us (I assume) were eyewitnesses to these battles, so we have to create an abstract from mechanical and engineering facts we have, and also the more intangible facts, mix them together, and come up with a simulation that satisfies not only history, but play balance, because we shouldn't ever lose sight of the fact that it is just a game. I think Matrix has done an incredible job of that. We even have the tools to make adjustments, as we see fit. I do it all the time, just to tweak things the way I think they were, and also to make the game more enjoyable. We have the tools, each and every one of us, use them.

A bit more than 2cents, but what the hell

As a side note, if anyone wants to do a PBEM with me as the Sovs, I'll try to make a bit of challenge.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 2:58 pm

Hi, after further review I can not recommend the T-34 at any point of the war. (in fact I can't recommend any Soviet AFV at any time) Soviet's had best learn how to handle infantry. It's cheap and hides better. The Germans take longer to kill it and if it gets close enough it will kill any German tank built. Buy that conscrpt infantry and cover the entire front with it. Then somewhere beyond deploy your true force. The trick is to make sure you can get your infantry around one of the objective areas. By holding onto one (more is better) you can insure a draw. A draw as the Soviets is to be as welcome as a victory for anyone else. Indeed prehaps this is historical. The Russians lost and drew their way into Berlin without ever winning a battle. Thank goodness the Germans got themselves into that great infantry versus infantry mess at Stalingrad.

sebagonzalez · Post by **sebagonzalez** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 4:21 pm

well guys, some posts back isaid i had nothing more to sya but now i have. I rechecked all the values of the new OOB in V7 for russian and German tanks and realised that altough they try to be as accurate to the real data as possbile (with errors of course), the system of putting this values works bad in the game, since it doesnt matter if u put correct numbers but in facts this numbers dont reflect history or comments of German Crews and Russian ones (my source of vital data to me, and the onlyone that matters). In 6.1 i could see all readed reflected in the game, with a powerfull T34 (not the one in V7 that can be blowed up from the front much more often than in 6.1 thats was almost impossible, but as i said almost, not almost certain). In V6.1 u can see the game reflect better all this comments of the combatants of WW2, although i think that the OOB must have some changes but the less are the Tanks related. So to me from now on and in the future.....V6.1 (maybe in the future with an edited oob discussed by a forum).
We can discuss as much as we want here, defend one Version or the other and we will never get to an understanding and for that is why i just dont ask for changes in V7, i ask the people who think V6.1 is better to join forces and discuss what changes can be done to the V6.1 OOB to polish it out better. V7 players happy with their version, and 6.1 ones with theirs for all the reasons stated in this forum till now. This topic dont deserves further discussion anymore. Lets leave it as a message for those who will decide between V7 and 6.1.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:54 pm

Why couldn't we just copy the v6.1 Russian Oob into v7? Then, if all that is said is true, the Russians would have strong T-34's against the German's strong guns.