How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Kid

I think that is what is done with the submarines...if a TF path goes over them there's a chance that there's a sub attack. I thought surface TFs ran similar routines...isn't that the case?

No this is not the case but I think making it so will solve the problem of not being able to block choke points.

Yes... but when I first put my idea on UV forum (many months ago) and then later on WitP forums and finally in official WitP wish list you didn't put it as if it made into list...


So is this in official wish list or not - can you please tell?

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Idea for "Poor Man's" Surface Combat TF intercept...

In both current UV (and as we hear WitP ALPHA) we don't have Surface Combat TF interception although this is on wish list for long long time...


Nonetheless we have in UV (and I presume in WitP ALPHA) the ability of submarines to have possibility/chance of attacking any TF that passes through HEX where they wait in ambush.

Same thing is with mine fields - every passing TF have possibility/chance of triggering offensive minefield in every HEX it passes through.


So... why not create "Poor Man's" Surface Combat intercept based on same thing?


Let's just have additional check that surface combat can occur if opposite TFs happen to be in same HEX during transition phases instead of just checking if they are in same HEX when movement ends (this and reaction to enemy TF attacking friendly base is the only way Surface Combat occurs now in UV).


IMHO, even such simplistic approach can give us incredible depth of possibilities and even further improve game engine!


BTW, various reasons were mentioned in past months regarding inability of creating intercept code - one of which was computation power in our PC.

But average computer power increased a lot in time since UV first come out and many of us (if not all) now have much powerful PC's than we had before so this should no longer be primary reason IMHO...

Leo "Apollo11"

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

A cruising fleet will search half heartedly for ships, but unless they EXPECT ships, they won't really check. In the interest of choke points however, it would be one consoation to make.

There's one particular thing I can't understand how did slip the developing stage of WitP...As the things are now, if you station one surface TF in an hex to cover a possible enemy approach from a certain direction with "patrol" orders, any enemy fleet can pass OVER your head without your ships battling it if their destination hex is farther away. In short, they're teletrasporting from point A (starting position) to point B (destination hex for the 12-hour phase), without checking if there is any enemy in between trying to cover and stop your approach.

This is something unrealistic to the extreme, and should receive a fix as soon as possible...


Just imagine the battle of Guadalcanal with Mikawa teletrasnporting immediately into the US transport TF unloading at lunga, bypassing neatly the cruiser cover force one "hex" to his west...and you'll get an idea of what I mean here.


Any hex with a surface patrol fleet into it with "patrol" orders MUST be considered "choke point" and should have a reasonable chance of stating a naval surface battle...the intruding fleet still may be lucky and slip past a covering force into his destination, but there's a true chance that it might be intercepted as it would be the case IRL.

[Mr.Frag]

This is something unrealistic to the extreme, and should receive a fix as soon as possible...

It is not unrealistic at all.

A hex is 60 miles wide.

A group of ships in perfect conditions can spot other ships at roughly 12 miles.

In non perfect conditions, that 12 miles can be as little as 2 miles.

There is plenty of space to slip through. This is why the number of mid ocean interceptions in the history of the world can be counted on one hand.

Unless you happen to be shadowing a group (ship or aircraft or sub) and leading the ships in to the combat, it is a very rare thing. Even then, there are *many* cases where the group slipped through and threw off the shadowing force.

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag



It is not unrealistic at all.

A hex is 60 miles wide.

A group of ships in perfect conditions can spot other ships at roughly 12 miles.

And if they're patrolling up'n down the hex at roughly 15 knots, in a line formation that can be VERY long, they're covering a much wider zone, and so they can see much more than what you point here.

Also you can have more than one TF patrolling the hex (historically what happened in Savo island, two cruiser forces patrolling up&down the two channels into ironbottom Sound), then the chances are still much inferior.

It would take good luck for a commander to time his aproach at night so he is in the far end of the hex while the covering force is at the final end of his search leg, on the other side of the hex, so a naval force can slip through. At day there would've a very very slim and little chance.


Commander qualities and should play a role here, and if the check is during the night, night training of the ships, but going through an enemy-occupied hex by day should be very difficult without a naval combat.

In non perfect conditions, that 12 miles can be as little as 2 miles.

Unless there's a little thing called Radar that solves that problem unless there's rain (fog or darkness don't count). Can you imagine a japanese TF running through a 60hex-wide space where an american surface fleet covering force is patrolling in 1943-44?...because I can't


However it's easy, make passing a check for detecting an enemy fleet harder when you're in bad weather...

There is plenty of space to slip through. This is why the number of mid ocean interceptions in the history of the world can be counted on one hand.

unless the space is restricted. Mikawa hadn't plenty of space to slip through, he had only a given aproach to Lunga, and that aproach was patrolled by american cruiser patrols. He COULD have slipped (he was never detected until he opened fire), but he COULD have been detected too.

A little thing for if you haven't noticed: Mikawa OPENED FIRE on the american CAs...in the game he would've appeared immediately at Lunga (his objective), bypassing the cruisers, and never having the chance of engaging them.

Unless you happen to be shadowing a group (ship or aircraft or sub) and leading the ships in to the combat, it is a very rare thing. Even then, there are *many* cases where the group slipped through and threw off the shadowing force.

Not when radar was "On" and the circumstances were right. Naval night battles of 1943 in the Solomons prove my point. American covering surface forces in each battle attacked the japanese ships BEFORE they were into the transport unloading zone ,because they were spotted and engaged while incoming.

In the game your raiding TF can ignore an hex with two BIG enemy surface fleets on patrol, jump over it, and appear in the middle of the transport fleet in the hex behind them. This has no realistic explanation at all unless the patrolling fleets have gone through a check to see if they saw you. If you pass the check, fine, if not, you battle it out against them BEFORE reaching your objective hex.

There are no checks currently so you can directly ignore any covering forces. This is UNREALISTIC ,period. There's no possible rationalization behind this.

There are quite some examples of ships slipping through covering forces during WW2, true, and had Mikawa not opened fire on the enemy, that could've one more example (or not, more probably than not he'd be spotted sooner or later before going through)...but there also A LOT of examples of ships NOT slipping through enemy covering forces, and having to battle it out against them. For instance: Savo Island Battle, or 1943 night engagmeents in the Solomons.

Heck, even Surigao Strait naval battle!!!! or do you think Fuso and Yamashiro should've magically appeared one hex away from the American Battleline jumping from one hex IN FRONT OF THEM?.

the battle of Savo Island alone proves you wrong enough, so I don't think I need to go further than that. I'ts unrealistic. Needs a fix.

[steveh11Matrix]

Er...
Sorry to contradict you, but assuming visibility is around 20,000 yards, you'd only need a screen of 3 ships to cover that 60 miles.

On the other hand, one or the other has to be actively looking and has the resources to look. Too few ships, lower visibility, these can make you come unstuck, but

On the Gripping Hand...we model the weather in this game, so the computer can take that into account. Then there's Radar. A Surface Combat force could (should) be considered to be searching for trouble, while an Escort or Air Combat mission wouldn't be...it would be trying to avoid it. You see where I'm going?

But hey, a simplified check on hexes passed through would be better than we have now, and Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough.

YMMV of course.

Steve.

[Mr.Frag]

Sorry to contradict you, but assuming visibility is around 20,000 yards, you'd only need a screen of 3 ships to cover that 60 miles.

And after your 1 screening ship is quickly sunk by the escort?

You pull together your other ships into a combat formation and head to the area?

Meanwhile ... the other commander knows he has been detected and reverses course?

Or do you expect him to play stupid and just keep coming in a straight line?

Perhaps he splits off his escort in a different direction to give you the impression of his TF going somewhere else while the main body (unsighted) continues onwards while you pursue the escort?

Always think that there are *two* brains at play trying to outwit each other. Both have limited information.

[byron13]

I'm having the strangest sensation of deja vu reading this thread.

[freeboy]

lol
like a giant ocean whirlpool sucking energy and life out of the forum

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

And after your 1 screening ship is quickly sunk by the escort?

and if each of your screening ships was part of an independent Surface Combat TF?. What if you've got 125193219632786 ships on that hex?

In the game it's a no-no: you can have 99 surface combat TFs in an hex, with 99 ships each; if the enemy TF's destination is not your own's, then you won't have the slightest chance to engage him.


Even if your case was true: where is the combat report that tells me that my picket ship was sunk? where is the battle to prove it?

Oh...there was none...no battle, no nothing, just an enemy TF teletransporting over your head...


One word to sum it up:

Unrealistic.

You pull together your other ships into a combat formation and head to the area?

Possibly. Quite some instances during 1943 real life night engagements prove that this reaction actually should happen quite many times.

Meanwhile ... the other commander knows he has been detected and reverses course?

if he knows that is truly important for him to win the battle, never. I can't see Mikawa turning around while Marines were flowing into Lunga, neither I can't see japanese forces turning around and flee in the 1943 night battles...

Anyway, the enemy would REVERSE COURSE, and REVERSING COURSE means: he's not going to make it into your transport force.

As it is the game now he would't retire: he would instantly find himself into an hex full of enemy transports...

If you still defend this, man, way to go!. I can't find anything less defendible so you have your own share of merit...

Or do you expect him to play stupid and just keep coming in a straight line?

depends wether he **knows** if he has been spoted or not. You picture the example of the enemy forces seeing your picket first. What if it's the other way?...what if it's the picket the one which sees you first (with radar or visually). he can say it so...maybe by radio, maybe by using his communication lamps to tell the rest of the force. Hell, he could even use shellflares... Maybe the rest of the forces don't notice...but maybe yes, and then you've got a nice surface engagement.

As it is now, you don't have a chance to intercept them. No checks, no pickets sunk, no communication. Enemy TF which doesn't finish his turn in other hex but your's (even going over you) will get past your TF hex,and that's it.


Unrealistic, unrealistic, unrealistic.

Perhaps he splits off his escort in a different direction to give you the impression of his TF going somewhere else while the main body (unsighted) continues onwards while you pursue the escort?

then you'll engage PART of his "decoy" force and he will then get past your covering TFs into the force you want to protect. Or ,if it doesn't work the enemy will have to battle you in a disadvantageous position (because if he's spotted, his "Decoy" force can't help him as much as if it was with him)


Nice...there you go, you've admitted he *MAY* have given the chance of a surface engagement of the detached "decoy" ships vs the defending cover force.

How many chances are now of that thing happening in WitP?...

--NONE--

in short: you're giving us the reason here.

Always think that there are *two* brains at play trying to outwit each other. Both have limited information.

But the *one* brain of the enemy has no superpowers. he can't teletransport his TF past en enemy TF actively patrolling to avoid it. He *actually* has to go through the enemy, or retire. In short: the enemy must pass a detection check. If the enemy fails ,the attacking force gets throug. If the enemy succeeds (and any TFs with radar should pass that check more times than not), then you've got to fight it to go through or retire without accompishing your mission.

none of both instances happen in WitP: the enemy force gets through your TF force by pure magic. In WitP Fuso and Yamashiro would magically appear behind Oldendorff's battleships without them firing a single round (no matter they were covering the strait from end to end).

I said this is unrealistic to the extreme???

just for the case I forgot: IT IS!.



as it is now, there are no *brains* into play: one TF passes overhead another, and that's it.

Needs a fix.

[freeboy]

too funny lol

[Charles2222]

It's my belief that the course isn't the direction of the next hex it will enter, but rather the direction it came from to enter the present hex. IOW, to be moving SE in the present hex, it had to come from the NW. All we really know from the current direction of the TF is that it is going either E, SE, or E the next hex it enters, which of course could mean the hex after that could be any of the three directions again. I've seen some of those routes these TF's take when given a far destination, and it's quite surprising how often they don't go to the quickest route possible, especially since the route being taken isn't known to have any threats in or about them (such as within LBA range).

Of course as explained earlier, we were assuming for some reason the TF would not only keep that same SE direction but also not change it's speed any. Am I understanding the rules properly to say that the slowest that TF can go is the 5 knots (cruise I assume)? It can either speed up or stop. I say it can stop only because it could do so if it made it's present hex (or go just to the next SE hex it's destination for a one hex move) the destination. If the slowest speed a moving TF can go is 1 hex per pulse on the open sea (if they started from a base I know they can move 1 hex on one pulse and zero on the other in certain circumstances) for a captain to continually plot one hex per turn, it would be pretty funny to see that mystifying their opponent, or of course for him to stop the TF. So even assuming the TF has to keep the same direction, he could be anywhere from the present hex to perhaps 4 hexes SE. Of course the AI will probably always be 2 hexes from the original, only we cannot be too certain those will be two SE directions taken.

[RAM]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

too funny lol

Yeah ,it is very funny ,your post adds so much to the topic in discussion, that is laughable.


I.E.: if you haven't anything constructive to say, or if you haven't anything to say, don't put stupid posts on other people's thread. Your post is unnecessary and, to a point, even offensive. If you're mature enough to post in a forum ,be mature enough to keep your laughing for yourself, if you are laughing about other people's opinions.


You know...Respecting others' opinions is the first rule to follow if you want to be respected. So,please, I would appreciate you stopping to add useless, senseless, and non-constructive garbage to this thread.

Thank you.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: RAM

ORIGINAL: freeboy

too funny lol

Yeah ,it is very funny ,your post adds so much to the topic in discussion, that is laughable.


I.E.: if you haven't anything constructive to say, or if you haven't anything to say, don't put stupid posts on other people's thread. Your post is unnecessary and, to a point, even offensive. If you're mature enough to post in a forum ,be mature enough to keep your laughing for yourself, if you are laughing about other people's opinions.


You know...Respecting others' opinions is the first rule to follow if you want to be respected. So,please, I would appreciate you stopping to add useless, senseless, and non-constructive garbage to this thread.

Thank you.

I got the impression freeboy liked your post and thought it was funny. You may have jumped the gun here.[;)]

[duckenf]

There should be at least some *small* chance of a mid-ocean intercept in intermediate hexes (i.e. hexes between day and night locations of a TF).

As Mr. Frag points out there are a lot of reasons why there might not be a battle; but surely these things can be abstracted into an algorithm that weighs info known on enemy TF (from radar, CW or sight), commander tendency, weather, etc, to generate th eliklihood of an engagement. For instance, there might be some chance of only an engagement between escorts and one side breaking off; with an "aggressive" commander, you might get a TF ignoring the odds and rushing in to fight. That happens with out-numered carrier TFs, why not with surface ships?

As it is, there is *zero* chance of that happening unless you correctly guess the hex that an enemy TF will end the day/night turn in. That should be remedied. It does seem like it might use up a lot more processor time though, checking all the permutations of TF locations.