Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

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Jon_Hal
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Jon_Hal »

I disagree 100%...


Training in AT-6 Texan is nothing like flying Wildcat.

You can't train combat in aircraft that is 2x slower than actual aircraft you will go into combat with. The incredible speeds and overall performances (rate of climb for example) brought by brand new and advanced fighters of 1939/1940/1941 throw away all concepts and training that were valid before.

It's like saying that you can prepare to be Formula One (F1) driver (or CART if you prefer US variant of the motor sport) by driving your own car... [;)]

Leo, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Training is always a progression. Acording to Saburo Sakai some of the Japanese aces started their flight training using bicycles! You've got to crawl before you can walk and I would think that most F1 Drivers did start out driving a beat up chevy or ford in a driver's training class.[:D]
I guess my point is the USN trained it pilots hard and it trained them well. History speaks for itself that their methodology and tactics worked in the classroom of air to air combat.

regards,
Jon
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It is not as though pilots trained in 1939+ in the USN trained in biplanes beyond elementary flight. Advanced training featured the At6, which was fast enough to put a premium on pilots who were good at deflection shooting. And also, the last sentence is really not very germane because by definition deflection shooting rarely occurs with aircraft head to head or making a stern approach. These are low deflection shots. Many of the high deflection shots occurred when the Japanese pilots would use their old favorite tactic from China. A section leader and his wingmates would attempt to make a passing run, low delfection, on an enemy (front or stern approach), dive under, zoom up, and turn round for another run. Unfortunately for many veteran Japanese pilots, zooming up in front of an F4F gave the Wildcat driver an excellent deflection shot.

I disagree 100%...


Training in AT-6 Texan is nothing like flying Wildcat.

You can't train combat in aircraft that is 2x slower than actual aircraft you will go into combat with. The incredible speeds and overall performances (rate of climb for example) brought by brand new and advanced fighters of 1939/1940/1941 throw away all concepts and training that were valid before.
Well,actually you can train in slower aircraft,and all air forces have been doing so since World War One..
The training of pilots however does NOT end at the graduation of the flight school,but continues thruout a pilot's career,(with whatever plane his unit is assigned to fly).
This too applies to every Air Force in the world..
This is not an opinion,if you do need verification,almost anybody here can provide it..[:)]


It's like saying that you can prepare to be Formula One (F1) driver (or CART if you prefer US variant of the motor sport) by driving your own car... [;)]


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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Darn... I guess none of you guys understood me... OK... here I go again... [:(]


The fast monocock full metal low wing fighters started to appear in air forces in 1939/1940/1941.

Those designs were so radically new that all the knowledge that pilots gained from WWI and in post war years become practically obsolete.

This is same thing for all air forces (in Europe, US and Japan).

Thus, saying that USN had extensive deflection shooting training from 1925 onwards means practically nothing because all that training and tactics were done in aircraft that were far far inferior to new hot fighters they all received before the war started (and practically useless because everything changed in meantime when new machines arrived).

Again this is same for all air forces (in Europe, US and Japan).

New things had to be learned and, basically, everything had to be done anew...


This is what I am saying guys... everything was new to almost all warring parties except for Germans and Japanese who had opportunity to test their new machines in Spain and China - other nations lacked that...


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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Halsey »

Oh, I'm not so sure I agree with that reasoning. That's like saying when you purchase a new automobile you have to learn how to drive all over again.
Also, once you have the skill at shooting it doesn't just go away. It might need more refinement when getting used to a new gun platform, but the skill is still there.
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Halsey

Oh, I'm not so sure I agree with that reasoning. That's like saying when you purchase a new automobile you have to learn how to drive all over again.
Also, once you have the skill at shooting it doesn't just go away. It might need more refinement when getting used to a new gun platform, but the skill is still there.

Sure thing you must... today's analogy would be if you jump from your average car directly into Formula One (F1)...


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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

"Drongo" is right... the Me-109 was better than P-40...

BTW, here is what Hans-Joachim Marseille (aka "The Star Of Africa") did to P-40's (according to many historians he was one of the best pilots in WWII - all his victories were against western allies):

http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm
His most "classic" combat, by some analysts, was on June 6, 1942 at noon. While in a bomber escort mission, he saw a formation of 16 P-40 Tomahawk fighter and ground attack aircraft, but initially remained with his formation, escorting the german bombers. After ten minutes, he left his formation with the escorted bombers and flew alone to attack the 16 Tomahawks, but his faithful wingman followed him. Marseille climbed above a tight formation of four, then dived at them. From a range of just 200ft he selected his first victim and turned at him. From a very short range of just 150ft he fired and shot it down. He then pulled up, turned, and dived at his 2nd victim, shooting it down from a range of 150ft. The others began to dive, but Marseille dived at them, turned at his 3rd victim and shot it down at altitude of about 3500ft (1km). He passed thru the smoke from his 3rd victim and leveled at low altitude, and then climbed again. He then dived again, at his 4th victim. He fired from just 100ft, but his guns didn't fire, so he fired his machine guns from very short range and passed thru the debris from his 4th victim. At the moment he hit his 4th victim, his 3rd victim hit the ground after falling 3500ft, approximately 15 seconds between victories, an indication of Marseille's speed. The remaining Tomahawks were now all at very low altitude. He leveled at them and quickly closed distance. He found himself beside one of the Tomahawks, he turned at him and fired, hitting his 5th victim in the engine and the cockpit. He climbed again, watched the remaining Tomahawks, selected a target, dived, levelled, and fired, and passed just above his 6th victim. He then climbed to his wingman which observed the battle from 7500ft above, and then, short of fuel and ammunition, flew back to base.

In 11 minutes of combat, fighting practically alone against a large enemy formation, he shot down six victims, five of them in the first six minutes. He was the only attacker in the battle, and not a single round was fired at him. The surviving Tomahawk pilots said in their debriefing that they were attacked "by a numerically superior german formation which made one formation attack at them, shot down six of their friends, and disengaged". In a post-war analysis of this dogfight these pilots testified the same.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/marse/marse.htm

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Charles2222
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Charles2222 »

I understand comparing the planes, but for the life of me I never heard of these two planes meeting. The most common place to meet a German plane (except the East Front) would have been when they were defending against strategic bombing and I can't imagine bombers that were flying below 15000ft very often.
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Drongo »

Charles,

Haven't you read any history of the air war in North Africa?
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Charles2222 »

The different quirks of different planes, or so I've heard, are monumentally different compared to the auto comparison. There are no normal functions of autos which unaccounted for that will lead to death, but there were a number of tendencies for specific planes which weren't common to other planes.
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: Drongo

Charles,

Haven't you read any history of the air war in North Africa?

Oh yeah, sure, but what fighting could there have been? Most Me109 action down there was against the Brits. Maybe the depleted corp they had left over there after the retreat from El Alamein saw some action against P40's, but how long did the Germans last after the Torch landing, 3 months?
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Drongo »

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
Oh yeah, sure, but what fighting could there have been? Most Me109 action down there was against the Brits. Maybe the depleted corp they had left over there after the retreat from El Alamein saw some action against P40's, but how long did the Germans last after the Torch landing, 3 months?

As well as the USAAF units, the Commonwealth used various versions the P-40 in North Africa from '41 (?) onwards under the designation of Tomahawk and later, the warhawk.

The Germans just called it the P-40 or Curtiss fighter (whenever they didn't mistake it for something else).
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by mdiehl »

The fast monocock full metal low wing fighters started to appear in air forces in 1939/1940/1941.

Sorry to be annoying, I am NOT a spelling nazi, but please... monocoque. And it doesn't mean "1 wing." It means that the exterior is also the major stress-bearing element in the design. That element of design was common in some combat biplanes in the mid-1930s. The F3F, for example, was a monocoque biplane. The difference is primarily in the "skin." A fabric covered surface is not a monocoque design. An aluminum surface generally was.
Those designs were so radically new that all the knowledge that pilots gained from WWI and in post war years become practically obsolete.

Errr. No. Nothing terribly radical about the designs at all. If you look at the progression from biplane to monoplane it's not a "great leap forward." It's a series of incremental progressions from frame&fabric, low HP biplanes to aluminum-skinned, higher HP-engined monoplanes. Withing the general category of things 1-winged and monocoque there was a huge degree of variation in characteristics affected by things like weight and drag and of course especially by powerplant output.
Thus, saying that USN had extensive deflection shooting training from 1925 onwards means practically nothing because all that training and tactics were done in aircraft that were far far inferior to new hot fighters they all received before the war started (and practically useless because everything changed in meantime when new machines arrived).


That is just pure, off the cuff, taking off the top of your head speculation and it is nonsense. It's hard to imagine what sort of training cycle you think that the USN used. People did not transition from Wright Fliers to F4Fs 48 hours before being sent into combat, so this business about the 'new fighters being radically different' in whatever you think they differed in ... is just not applicable. F4F pilots trained extensively in F4Fs at deflection shooting and were very, very good at it. And the proof is in the performance. Thach, Flatley, other famous pilots at the time attributed USN pilots' ability to hold their own to good deflection shooting. Lundstrom's analyses prove that good deflection shooting was instrumental in obtaining victories over the A6M. So, you seem to have a "theory" with no good statement of why the theory ought to make sense that is not supported by extant information about training practices nor by extant information from combat.

Now I don't know what you imagine to be radically different. Airspeeds increased, but that happened at a pretty constant rate from 1914 through 1945. The only "great leap" in airspeed occurred with the transition to the jet age.

I also fail to see how this could matter in combat, because high rates of closure in deflection training could be obtained using almost any aircraft. Consider an AT6 Texan pilot training at aerial gunnery. His target is a banner towed by, perhaps, a Hudson or some other aircraft. In any quartering from behind to dead astern approach, the AT6's closing rate is on the order of anything from nil to 100 mph, depending on the AT6's pilots desires. This is certainly much greater than the speed differential of any F4F on a quartering approach on an A6M in a combat where, for example, both planes may have turned once. It's certainly a much greater difference than that for which F4F pilots would have compensated when and A6M making a stern approach pass on an F4F would dive under then zoom up in front of the F4F (a favored tactic of A6M pilots as a matter of training and doctrine).

Finally, there is the fact that the deflection shooting worked. You don't have to take my word for it. Read what Thach and Flatley said about it. You don't have to take their word for it, read what Lundstrom said about it. You don't have to take his word for it, read the detailed descriptions of a2a combat and see for yourself the numerous instances of Zekes falling to F4Fs in deflection shots. You don't have to beleive those are typical, but if you read any history of the aerial war the usual conclusion is that the dcotrinal emphasis on deflection shooting gave the USN the edge. Heck, if I remember right even the "usual suspects" Japanese pilot anecdotes credit the USN pilots with being crack shots.

You don't have to believe THEIR word for it either. Ask yourself how an a/c that was less maneuverable at slow speed than the Zero, with inferior acceleration, inferior climb, and slower maximum WEP speed at all altitudes managed to shoot down more Zekes in direct confrontations than they lost? It wasn't done by pounding one's fists on the controls and shouting harsh words at the Japanese.
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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Jon_Hal »

Thus, saying that USN had extensive deflection shooting training from 1925 onwards means practically nothing because all that training and tactics were done in aircraft that were far far inferior to new hot fighters they all received before the war started (and practically useless because everything changed in meantime when new machines arrived).

Again this is same for all air forces (in Europe, US and Japan).

New things had to be learned and, basically, everything had to be done anew...


This is what I am saying guys... everything was new to almost all warring parties except for Germans and Japanese who had opportunity to test their new machines in Spain and China - other nations lacked that...


Leo "Apollo11"

Leo, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Myself and several others have provided historical examples that seem to disagree with you position. You have yet to provide any proof of your position besides your opinion. Your statement is fine and good if you want to believe it, I'm not going to try to convince you anymore. I will let the historical record stand on it's own.

Jon

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RE: Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

Post by Tristanjohn »


Original Apollo11

You can't compare USA vs. Japan in WWII with USA vs. Iraq nowadays.

That would simply be ridiculous.

Japan was truly world power in WWII with extremely highly trained 1st class Navy, Army and Air Force.

Well, that highly-trained first-class IJA had its lunch eaten by the Russians and could barely make meaningful progress in China after a short while and was basically slaughtered by the US Marines and then even the Army when all that came to pass (and with regard to the latter clashes the IJA had all possible advantage when it came to defensive ground and prior preparation to battle, with many of its troops already battle-hardened and "experienced").

The point you seem intent on ignoring was that excellent training can (does) indeed negate dubious battlefield experience in the real world--that is, battlefield experience is not the be-all and end-all of combat. This was further demonstrated in World War II on the land and in the air when Japan suffered check after bloody check in its first head-on clashes with the Americans and its allies in the Solomons and New Guinea--and again, please keep in mind that some of these Japanese troops were highly-thought-of veterans of China and other hot spots from earlier in the war, whereas for the most part they faced green Allied soldiers.

Bottom line: superior combat training is worth its weight in gold come the battlefield, which is why so much time and effort is placed on this by your more successful military services.
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Deflection shooting

Post by mogami »

Hi, I'm not sure what all the hype about deflection shooting is about. If your tactic in combat is not to get on the enemys tail or come at him head on then you are going to use deflection shooting. Any time you practice such an attack you practice deflection shooting.
Deflection shooting methods are good for aircraft with lots of fire power and even better against unarmored aircraft. (where the lower number of actual strikes still casues enough damage)

The most damaging shot is of course one from directly astern the enemy aircraft because your rounds will penetrate more of the enemy aircraft then a deflection shot will.

So it does not strike me as anything remarkable that the airforce with the lower firepower more manoverable aircraft prefered stern shots while the airforce with the higher speed and more fire power used deflection. (but I'm still thinking USN pilots used stern attacks except when against fighters)

Japanese pilots shot down USN fighters with deflection shots. (why Allied pilots liked to make the A6M2 turn left rather then right. It was much harder for the A6M2 to get a deflection shot where he had to turn left.) If the Japanese failed in his deflection shot then he would now be in trouble because he could not set up a stern attack on an aircraft with a higher speed and while trying to make a left handed deflection shot his aircraft becomes more exposed to another Allied aircrafts deflection shot. (It was hard to make a stern attack on A6M2 flown by trained pilot who was aware you were there)

If the USN had never heard of deflection shooting (they would have of course been just as likely to be unware you could mount a gun on an aircraft) But if they had no skill in Dec 1941 they would have been forced to learn it simply because that is the type of shooting required for the tactics they used. If you can't out turn the enemy you can't make stern attacks. You have to use deflection shooting.

I repeat deflection shooting is simply where you aim at empty air that will have enemy aircraft in it when your rounds arrive there. Unless you are directly astern or coming directly headon you are deflection shooting. Every gunner assigned to a MG on any aircraft from WW1 on had to use deflection shooting. There was nothing "USN" about it.
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RE: Deflection shooting

Post by Tristanjohn »

Mogami, you answered your own question a couple of times with apparently no effect. [:D]

USN (and to an extent USMC) pilots practiced this hard and then developed better tactics to accomodate this technique in actual combat, whereas other services did not follow suit. It's a simple as that, really. Add to that happy mix that USN tactics perfectly wedded to the machines they flew, whereas this would not have been the case with Japanese machines, for whatever that's worth.

The result of all this was fairly predictable (especially with hindsight) and perfectly borne out by historical results.
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RE: Deflection shooting

Post by mdiehl »

(but I'm still thinking USN pilots used stern attacks except when against fighters)

F4F drivers preferred quartering shots at Japanese bombers over stern approaches because of the 20mm tail armament of some Japanese bombers.
Japanese pilots shot down USN fighters with deflection shots. (why Allied pilots liked to make the A6M2 turn left rather then right.
Every gunner assigned to a MG on any aircraft from WW1 on had to use deflection shooting. There was nothing "USN" about it.

The "USN" thing about it was the amount of effort dedicated to pilots, while they were training, to become proficient at it. Although pilots of all air forces at times attempted it, often successfully, it seems according to Lundstrom that the USN worked harder at training pilots to be good at it.
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RE: Deflection shooting

Post by Tristanjohn »

The "USN" thing about it was the amount of effort dedicated to pilots, while they were training, to become proficient at it. Although pilots of all air forces at times attempted it, often successfully, it seems according to Lundstrom that the USN worked harder at training pilots to be good at it.

Which is, again, borne out by the historical results.

I thought this was thoroughly hashed out on the UV boards . . . how many times? I guess not.
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RE: ME109 vs P40

Post by caslug »

To add to the example that Drong made about Marsaille. When the P40 pilots saw the ME109 come at them, they form a lufberry cirlce(circling the wagon, all the plane fly in a circle-so an enemy can't get on their tail) to proctect against the ME109. This was a doctrine for these pilots in this instances, but you would assume they knew not to tangle w/ ME109. If they were really superior then they would have attacked them, 12-16 P40 to 2 ME109. Marsaille was the probably the best deflection shooter of the war(at the minimum on the GERMAN side). When he shot down all those P40, he used deflection shooting, he would dive in pull up, and spray them, the P40 were caught in a trap... if they broke the circle then they were vulnerable to getting jumped, but if they stayed in formation they got shot down by this uncannily accurate pilot. They eventually broke and ran to get away. Probably 99% of pilots couldn't shoot this well, so the luftberry work 99% of the time, P40 pilot that day were just VERY UNLUCKY to run into that 1%(or maybe 0.0001%).

So either a) the P40 pilot drew into a circle when confronted by ME109 because of doctrine or b) recognize that it was Marsaille, and drew into a cirlce because of his reputation.

Most pilots (all sides) were not expert at deflection shooting, that's why thousands of pilots(all sides) fly their tours but never shot down a plane, becuase they just didn't have a) shooting eye and b) hunter instincts. Of course the pilots that had those skills, became legend(foss, Yeager, campell, sakai, hartman, etc.,). Even Eric Hartman, said that strategy was to manuever the plane really close(preferably rear) before openning up.
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RE: Deflection shooting

Post by mogami »

Hi, Well I can see where that would be the case. If they say "We are not attacking from the stern" then the only option left is deflection shooting.

You know the Japanese learned they had to attack B-17 with deflection shooting but 2x7mm does not do the damage 6x.50cal (or more) does. Getting hits with the 20mm using deflection shooting would limit an A6M2 pilot to only one or two shots. Much better for him to fill his sight with enemy aircraft close up.

The Luftwaffe used deflection attacks against B-17 as well. Where they came over the top rolled over and passed under. The whole time they were firing at empty space that was full of B-17 when it mattered.

All fighter pilots do the "snap shot" where you quickly turn your nose and fire before going into another move and your not astern of the enemy.
If it is what you do then it is not surprising you get good at it.
It was the perfect match for Allied aircraft. It makes Japanese aircraft lose their advantage and the only cost to the Allies is higher ammo bills. (Not that deflection shooting wastes more ammo for good shots) It's just like skeet shooting only your flying and using a maginegun.
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