Factor in US Victory at Midway

[Dereck]

(Just like the Bismarck- was it scuttled or sunk by the RN? The fact is it was destroyed regardless if the sole survivor unplugged the cork when it had 99 sys, 98 flotation, and 99 fires.)

The Bismark crew may have been trying to scuttle her but I don't think the British destroyers gave them a chance. I believe the RN kept hitting her until she finally sank.

[bombata]

hi all,

i have to add something about the bismarck:

i work in a "retirement home" in germany and therefore, we had several old men who were in the "wehrmacht" during the WW 2.

one of them was a member of "kriegsmarine". he had for example some pictures of himself with some other sailors in the kriegsmarine-uniform in the military harbor of kiel and said, that he was serving on a destroyer which was sunk at narvik (norway) and then, he was displaced to the bismarck as the ship were doing its tests in the ostsee.

he said to me, that he cant belive that the RN was sinking the bismarck because the ship were still swimming even after some torpedo-hits. he said, that the crew opend the flood-ventils of the ship and then left the sinking ship.

now, he was (he died 2003) a old man but he had not a dementia or so. he was very clear and oriented. unfortunary, i cant say if his story is true or not. he didnt show me a picture of himself onboard the bismarck (maybe there were no pictures allowed for reason of safety?).

just wanted to write this down and also say, that the bismarck survivers (i think there were only 200 or so rescued by the RN) in germany were/are firmly convinced of it that they sunk the bismarck and not the RN.

about for the IJN damage control:

maybe the bushido-codex was one of the reasons why the japanese dient thought about safety and thought that this (for the japanese) dishonorable thoughts/deed would weaken the morale of the men. you know, like the 1st WW pilots who refused to wear a parachute earlier in the war.

bye all

[Sharkosaurus rex]

I still count the Graf Spree as being sunk by the RN. It doesn't matter who or what was the final instrument of sinking. It was scuttled instead of facing a superior enemy (?) or tricked into it.

The Bismarck was extra flamy when the flood-ventrils were opened. But the RN forced it into a position of defeat, just because the Germans knocked over the king shouldn't take away from the RN victory.

No one can said that the Hood pulled the plug.

I'm sure your kriegsmarine story is true. The German sailors probably did pull the plug, but the ship was a wreck it just takes a while to fill with water. If you waited long enough it would have sunk with all the damage it sustained. Maybe the Germans were fearful of the RN capturing the Bismarck? But I don't think the British were in the mode for that on the 26th of May.


I think with the Japanese ships it was like picking a football team: the best recruits got picked first and went into gunnery and engineering. And the fat kids got the damage control jobs. They practiced what they were good at: so off to the park to shoot some guns and torpedoes into the goals. But they forgot to practice the hard unwanted jobs. Same with the radars. It was bad enough to have inadequate equipment but the skill of the radar team would have been as bad as the fat kids. They probably practiced sumo more than using the radar dials and stuff. Another problem for Japanese ships was their low crew per ship. After taking some hits suddenly there is a lot less people on board but 100 new jobs to be done to fight the fires, look after friends, and continue the battle. Also the Japanese needed to make their "NO SMOKING" signs a bit bigger!!!

[Dereck]

I didn't mean to imply that the British destroyers were the only cause of the Bismark sinking. From all I've heard and read the British didn't wait around for the ship to be scuttled by the German crew and sent in destroyers to finish her off even though what I've read and heard ALSO said the crew had been in the process or already had scuttled her and she was sinking.

Seems the Brits were a bit obsessed about sending her to the bottom because of the loss of the Hood. They figured they could sink German ships but were perturbed when their ships were sunk it seems.

(Okay lambast me for that last statement but I'll stand by it [:D] )

[Dereck]

I think with the Japanese ships it was like picking a football team: the best recruits got picked first and went into gunnery and engineering. And the fat kids got the damage control jobs. They practiced what they were good at: so off to the park to shoot some guns and torpedoes into the goals. But they forgot to practice the hard unwanted jobs. Same with the radars. It was bad enough to have inadequate equipment but the skill of the radar team would have been as bad as the fat kids. They probably practiced sumo more than using the radar dials and stuff. Another problem for Japanese ships was their low crew per ship. After taking some hits suddenly there is a lot less people on board but 100 new jobs to be done to fight the fires, look after friends, and continue the battle. Also the Japanese needed to make their "NO SMOKING" signs a bit bigger!!!

Any Navy veteran (American, British, etc) can attest to what I'm going to say. EVERYBODY on board a naval vessel is trained in damage control. If you don't have a combat-related job (CIC, flight crew, gun crew) you are assigned a damage control crew as your GQ station (General Quarters or for you landlubbers Battle Stations). When you take damage you can't call 911 and have the fire department, plumber or handyman come and fix it for you ... YOU are the fire department and repairman. If you're not then the next question is: how long can you tread water?

The simple fact of the matter was the Japanese navy DIDN'T train damage control and firefighting like the Allies did because such training was considered "defeatist" even though we'd call it common sense.

[Nomad]

I can not remember the details but some of the USN CVs were abandoned becasue there were enemy forces near and they could not make enough headway to get out of the area. Remember that it would not just be any crew onboard the CV that would be at risk, but any other escorting ships also. This would also apply to other major combat ships.