acclerated ship

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RE: acclerated ship

Post by steveh11Matrix »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
Surely you're joking! If you do nothing to the Japanese production, doesn't it run at the historical rate?

Historical rate? I have no idea. Is the arrival schedule in the game historical? I never looked at it that way. All I know is that the arrival schedule in the game is unattainable without taking action of some kind.
Translation please? [;)] Did you mean the best arrival schedule?[:)]

I've always felt that, like A/C research, this ought to be left well alone unless you're playing a specifically "What If" scenario, and in that case it ought to be better/more easily handled using the editor.

Just my feeling: I haven't actually played as the Japanese in a full-map scenario yet. So I'm trying to see what else I'm going to have to do!

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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

Translation please? Did you mean the best arrival schedule?
No, I mean the arrival schedule that you see when you look at the ship arrivals through the info screen. The arrival schedule leaving all ships on "normal". There aren't enough naval shipyard points to make it happen this way. Either you make changes or the game will make them for you by means of not advancing (I believe) the most expensive ship(s) on days when there aren't enough points. So day 1, need 1260, have 1174. So, Yamato does not advance today. But you only spend 1080, so 94 go into the bank. Day 2, need 1260, have 1174+94=1268, all projects advance, banzai! Day 3, need 1271 (another Yugumo just started burning points), have 1174+8=1182, oops, Yamato slips another day, but 89 points go into the bank....

I never tested to find out for sure which ship(s) production would slip; I just resolved never to be in that position, that I would be the one to choose what did not get built, rather than allow the game to do it for me.
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Hornblower
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Hornblower »

If Japan is being played/managed by the AI, does it make any adjustments to the historical ship builds, or does it build what was built when it was built? I guess i am asking is the AI "smart" enought to focus points to say CV's and DE's by dropping various other projects? [8|]
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Djordje »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
Translation please? Did you mean the best arrival schedule?
No, I mean the arrival schedule that you see when you look at the ship arrivals through the info screen. The arrival schedule leaving all ships on "normal". There aren't enough naval shipyard points to make it happen this way. Either you make changes or the game will make them for you by means of not advancing (I believe) the most expensive ship(s) on days when there aren't enough points. So day 1, need 1260, have 1174. So, Yamato does not advance today. But you only spend 1080, so 94 go into the bank. Day 2, need 1260, have 1174+94=1268, hooray, all projects advance! Day 3, need 1271 (another Yugumo just started burning points), have 1174+8=1182, oops, Yamato slips another day, but 89 points go into the bank....

I never tested to find out for sure which ship(s) production would slip; I just resolved never to be in that position, that I would be the one to choose what did not get built, rather than allow the game to do it for me.

This was exactly the case in my game, Yamato arrived in September 1942, Musashi will not be finished before january 1943...
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

Musashi will not be finished before january 1943...

At least, that's what the arrival schedule is telling you now....[:(]
If you are still allowing all ships to build, I'd be surprised if she actually arrives then; the building points requirement goes up to 1350-1400 points per day towards the end of 1942. Keep an eye on Musashi's arrival date for a few turns; not only is she unlikely to advance at all, I think you can expect Shinano to start slipping as well. Both will likely be delayed for months. Halt Shinano now, and Musashi will advance most days, and you will eventually start to accumulate shipbuilding points that you can use to accelerate the ships that can help you in the coming months. You may also want to look at whether you want the RO boats eating up shipbuilding points; they are awfully expensive for not much benefit.

Thanks for the confirmation, it's always nice to know whether one's theoretical understanding of game mechanics is accurate.
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Tanaka
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

If Japan is being played/managed by the AI, does it make any adjustments to the historical ship builds, or does it build what was built when it was built? I guess i am asking is the AI "smart" enought to focus points to say CV's and DE's by dropping various other projects? [8|]

No the AI never makes any adjustments. It doesnt touch production/research etc.....
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

With no shipyard changes, Japan gets 1174 naval shipyard points per day. On 12/7/41 the following have reached the stage of construction that requires the expenditure of shipyard points in order for them to advance towards completion: 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS requiring a total expenditure of 1260 points per day. From the start there is a deficit that can be handled in various ways.
  • as I said, you can stop Shinano. Her merits aside, she gobbles up 180 points every day until her arrival on 11/17/44. That's 15% of the shipbuilding budget for a ship that is essentially worthless.
  • you can expand shipyards. I rejected this out of hand as too expensive, both of supplies to pay for the expansion as well as of HI to pay for the shipbuilding. But should you elect to do this, the real trick there is how much to expand, and timing of the expansion. Of course you need more points right away, and expanding shipyards takes time.
  • you can convert merchant shipyards. You have 1000 points worth of them at the start, and only 510 points worth of merchies burning. But that is before you convert AKs to AE, AR, AS, AV, and MLE. Those guys cost an additional 18 points a day each. Only you know how many of those you are going to make, so only you know whether you have leftover merchie capacity or not.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is the situation at the start. It is not static but can and does change on a daily basis as some ships arrive and others reach the point where they start burning shipyard points. For example, the expenditure required for merchant ship construction on Jan 3, 1944 is 2612 points. That's pretty rich for your 1000 point per day budget. Fortunately for you, by then you are likely to have excess naval shipbuilding capacity that you can convert to merchant construction. The only question then is whether you have the HI to build all those ships (and of course, whether you still actually need any of them!). The only way to really be able to plan your shipbuilding is to build a day by day construction plan for the entire war including all possible ships, and then start tweaking it. I have done this, and would be happy to share it, but the files are huge. The one for warships is 23 megs, the one for merchies is 37 megs.

ok after all this this is how im looking at shipbuilding. please let me know what you think.

"With no shipyard changes, Japan gets 1174 naval shipyard points per day. On 12/7/41 the following have reached the stage of construction that requires the expenditure of shipyard points in order for them to advance towards completion: 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS requiring a total expenditure of 1260 points per day. From the start there is a deficit that can be handled in various ways. "

......so 1260 - 1174 = 86 point deficit.

Halting Shinano = 180 points. 180 - 86 = 94 points left.

Now all of my other ships are building on schedule and will arrive on time and I have 94 points left to speed up another ship or ships.

So I choose to speed up the CS Nissin and the CVL Shoho at 45 points apiece = 90 points spent.

That leaves me with 4 points left. So I choose to speed up the MSWa1 and MSWa2 at 2 points apiece = my remaining 4 points spent.

Thus by halting the Shinano I have put all my remaining ships on schedule and sped up the schedule of CS Nissin, CVL Shoho, MSWa1, MSWa2.

Is this all correct? Please tell me I now understand the system! [:D]
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

You're headed in the right direction, except you need to keep in mind that the merchant shipyard point (MSP) pool and the naval shipyard point pool are two separate things. Your MSWs are built using MSPs.

Also, a ship is only available for acceleration under certain circumstances. "A ship that has a delay over 10 * ship durability and less than 30 * ship durability may be accelerated." So your MSWs would be available for acceleration (using MSPs of course) only when they were due to arrive between 10*2=20 days and 30*2=60 days from now. IOW, you can't accelerate just any ship, it has to be one that is already well along.
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

Sorry, one more thing. One day's worth of acceleration costs two times the ship's durability. So to accelerate Shoho by one day costs 90 (in addition to the 45 already spent for the normal progress). Every day during which you accelerate construction gets you two days nearer completion, but costs you three times the durability in shipyard points.
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

One more thing about acceleration, continuing with the Shoho example. Shoho will arrive in 48 days using normal construction, so she costs 48*45=2160 points. If you accelerate her from the start she will cost 3 times as many points every day she is being accelerated, but will arrive in half the time. So she'll arrive in 24 days, at a cost of 24*45*3=3240 points. The total cost is only one-and-one-half times as much as the normal cost. You pay three times as much per day on the front end, but then after she arrives, you spend nothing when you would have still been paying the normal cost.
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
You're headed in the right direction, except you need to keep in mind that the merchant shipyard point (MSP) pool and the naval shipyard point pool are two separate things. Your MSWs are built using MSPs.
Sorry, one more thing. One day's worth of acceleration costs two times the ship's durability. So to accelerate Shoho by one day costs 90 (in addition to the 45 already spent for the normal progress). Every day during which you accelerate construction gets you two days nearer completion, but costs you three times the durability in shipyard points.
One more thing about acceleration, continuing with the Shoho example. Shoho will arrive in 48 days using normal construction, so she costs 48*45=2160 points. If you accelerate her from the start she will cost 3 times as many points every day she is being accelerated, but will arrive in half the time. So she'll arrive in 24 days, at a cost of 24*45*3=3240 points. The total cost is only one-and-one-half times as much as the normal cost. You pay three times as much per day on the front end, but then after she arrives, you spend nothing when you would have still been paying the normal cost.
Also, a ship is only available for acceleration under certain circumstances. "A ship that has a delay over 10 * ship durability and less than 30 * ship durability may be accelerated." So your MSWs would be available for acceleration (using MSPs of course) only when they were due to arrive between 10*2=20 days and 30*2=60 days from now. IOW, you can't accelerate just any ship, it has to be one that is 70% or more complete.
One more thing about acceleration, continuing with the Shoho example. Shoho will arrive in 48 days using normal construction, so she costs 48*45=2160 points. If you accelerate her from the start she will cost 3 times as many points every day she is being accelerated, but will arrive in half the time. So she'll arrive in 24 days, at a cost of 24*45*3=3240 points. The total cost is only one-and-one-half times as much as the normal cost. You pay three times as much per day on the front end, but then after she arrives, you spend nothing when you would have still been paying the normal cost.

Ok so from what you said ill start over. im going by 1 day to keep it simple.

ok after all this this is how im looking at shipbuilding. please let me know what you think.

"With no shipyard changes, Japan gets 1174 naval shipyard points per day. On 12/7/41 the following have reached the stage of construction that requires the expenditure of shipyard points in order for them to advance towards completion: 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS requiring a total expenditure of 1260 points per day. From the start there is a deficit that can be handled in various ways. "

......so 1260 - 1174 = 86 point deficit.

Halting Shinano = 180 points.
Halting Mushashi = 185 points.
180+185 = 365 points
365 - 86 = 279 points left.


Now all of my other ships are building on schedule and will arrive on time and I have 279 points left to speed up another ship or ships.

So I choose to speed up the CVL Shoho at 135 points. 45 normal points/day * 3 = 135 points

That leaves me with 144 points left. So I choose to speed up the Unyo at 40 normal points/day*3=120 points. 144-120= 24 points. Not much else you can do with 24 points.

Thus by halting the Shinano and Mushashi I have put all my remaining ships on schedule and sped up the schedule of the Shoho and the Unyo.

Is this all correct? Please tell me this time I now understand the system! [:D]
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

So I choose to speed up the CVL Shoho at 135 points. 45 normal points/day * 3 = 135 points
Not quite. You already paid 45 of the 135 points for Shoho (the part for "normal" construction) as part of the original 1260 points.
That leaves me with 144 points left. So I choose to speed up the Unyo at 40 normal points/day*3=120 points. 144-120= 24 points. Not much else you can do with 24 points.

Except Unyo, a CVE, is a part of the merchant ship construction program. You cannot affect her here (but if you could, your calculation would have been faulty for the same reason as for Shoho; you already accounted for the points for "normal" construction).

So, to pick up your example where you went astray:

180+185 = 365 points
365 - 86 = 279 points left

Less 90 to accelerate Shoho, leaves you with 189 to play with. You could even reinstate Musashi...
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
So I choose to speed up the CVL Shoho at 135 points. 45 normal points/day * 3 = 135 points
Not quite. You already paid 45 of the 135 points for Shoho (the part for "normal" construction) as part of the original 1260 points.
That leaves me with 144 points left. So I choose to speed up the Unyo at 40 normal points/day*3=120 points. 144-120= 24 points. Not much else you can do with 24 points.

Except Unyo, a CVE, is a part of the merchant ship construction program. You cannot affect her here (but if you could, your calculation would have been faulty for the same reason as for Shoho; you already accounted for the points for "normal" construction).

So, to pick up your example where you went astray:

180+185 = 365 points
365 - 86 = 279 points left

Less 90 to accelerate Shoho, leaves you with 189 to play with. You could even reinstate Musashi...

ok gotcha yay i finally got it!!! thank you thank you thank you for your help!!!! [:D] [&o]
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

you're welcome!
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

With no shipyard changes, Japan gets 1174 naval shipyard points per day. On 12/7/41 the following have reached the stage of construction that requires the expenditure of shipyard points in order for them to advance towards completion: 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS requiring a total expenditure of 1260 points per day. From the start there is a deficit that can be handled in various ways.

[*] you can convert merchant shipyards. You have 1000 points worth of them at the start, and only 510 points worth of merchies burning. But that is before you convert AKs to AE, AR, AS, AV, and MLE. Those guys cost an additional 18 points a day each. Only you know how many of those you are going to make, so only you know whether you have leftover merchie capacity or not.
[/ul]

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is the situation at the start. It is not static but can and does change on a daily basis as some ships arrive and others reach the point where they start burning shipyard points. For example, the expenditure required for merchant ship construction on Jan 3, 1944 is 2612 points. That's pretty rich for your 1000 point per day budget. Fortunately for you, by then you are likely to have excess naval shipbuilding capacity that you can convert to merchant construction. The only question then is whether you have the HI to build all those ships (and of course, whether you still actually need any of them!). The only way to really be able to plan your shipbuilding is to build a day by day construction plan for the entire war including all possible ships, and then start tweaking it. I have done this, and would be happy to share it, but the files are huge. The one for warships is 23 megs, the one for merchies is 37 megs.

One last question: How did you figure out that on turn one you are already spending 1260 points per day completing 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS???

...and the same with the merchant yards? How did you figure out you are already spending 510 points per day completing merchant ships? Which merchant ships are these? And how do I fix my merchants so they all arrive on time like i did in my Shinano example??? What ships should I halt so that all my merchants arrive on time???


"The only way to really be able to plan your shipbuilding is to build a day by day construction plan for the entire war including all possible ships, and then start tweaking it. I have done this, and would be happy to share it, but the files are huge. The one for warships is 23 megs, the one for merchies is 37 megs."


I would love to see this! Could you post or email or send to Spooky??? Thanks!!!
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by Tophat »

Thanks both of you for this information! Tanaka I was making the same counting error you were,thanks irrelevant for clearing this up!

What are the number from the merchant yards assuming you do nothing in the way of expansion? How many if any points do you have to work with on accelerating ships?
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

One last question: How did you figure out that on turn one you are already spending 1260 points per day completing 4CV, 2CVL, 2BB, 1DD, 12SS???

...and the same with the merchant yards? How did you figure out you are already spending 510 points per day completing merchant ships? Which merchant ships are these? And how do I fix my merchants so they all arrive on time like i did in my Shinano example??? What ships should I halt so that all my merchants arrive on time???

You need to download Amiral Laurent's excellent "List of the Japanese Buildable Ships" from Spooky's, dated 7/16/04. It lists all ships, separated between warships and merchants, together with their shipbuilding costs and arrival dates. This is all the info you need to determine, day-by-day, the cost to Japan for shipbuilding, and it is what I used as the starting point for my shipbuilding planning tools. In the meantime I'll look into getting my spreadsheets put up somewhere, but as I said, they are huge files.
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

What are the number from the merchant yards assuming you do nothing in the way of expansion? How many if any points do you have to work with on accelerating ships?

Japan produces 1000 merchant shipbuilding points per turn at the start. The "normal" merchant shipbuilding cost is 510 points on 12/7/41. By January 30 it reaches 595, which is the high point for the first year or so. This means that you have between 400-500 points per day to play with for converting AKs to AE/AS/AR/AV/MLE (18 points per day each) and for accelerating things like CVE/CS/whatever. Go to Spooky's and get Amiral Laurent's download mentioned above.
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RE: acclerated ship

Post by steveh11Matrix »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
Translation please? Did you mean the best arrival schedule?
No, I mean the arrival schedule that you see when you look at the ship arrivals through the info screen. The arrival schedule leaving all ships on "normal". There aren't enough naval shipyard points to make it happen this way. Either you make changes or the game will make them for you by means of not advancing (I believe) the most expensive ship(s) on days when there aren't enough points. So day 1, need 1260, have 1174. So, Yamato does not advance today. But you only spend 1080, so 94 go into the bank. Day 2, need 1260, have 1174+94=1268, hooray, all projects advance! Day 3, need 1271 (another Yugumo just started burning points), have 1174+8=1182, oops, Yamato slips another day, but 89 points go into the bank....

I never tested to find out for sure which ship(s) production would slip; I just resolved never to be in that position, that I would be the one to choose what did not get built, rather than allow the game to do it for me.
Sorry I'm a little slow, I've just read your post.

Thanks for the explanation. Seems rather ridiculous to me...something to be corrected via the editor in fact.

Frankly, I'd rather spend time with the editor making the shipbuilding work as intended than frag my way through in-game, where I really ought to be spending the time on operational decisions, not fussing with shipbuilding. The same is true of A/C production, in fact. I'm absolutely astonished that players of the Japanese haven't collectively roared at Matrix/2by3 to sort this out![&:]

IMO the default situation - the player doesn't touch shipbuilding, A/C production, replacements, land unit production, research or any other similar consideration - should produce the historically correct production for the Japanese player. After all, AFAIK it does for the Allied player!

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RE: acclerated ship

Post by tsimmonds »

I'm absolutely astonished that players of the Japanese haven't collectively roared at Matrix/2by3 to sort this out!

I don't know about the others, but I haven't squawked because I'm a sicko beancounter by profession and I kind of enjoy the puzzle of it. But it never occurred to me that there was anything particularly wrong with it. It just needs some tweaking, same as aircraft production. You examine the possibilities, decide on your priorities, and make some choices. Your assumption is that the arrival schedule is exactly historical, but looking at the it, I see ships on it that I know were not completed during the war (CVL Ibuki, CVs Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma), but you can build them or even rush them to completion if you wish. I expect the Japanese themselves had to make some tough choices regarding their shipbuilding plans.
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