A Merchant Raider TF

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Yesterday i got myself thinking, what would be a goof TF composition for a japanese merchant raider in 1941 and early 42. It has come to my attention that the allies seem to be a little lacking in escorts in the eastern pacific and many transport TF's sail to OZ with little or no escort whatsoever. Now I used to think that several warships were needed to do serious damage but, a few days ago I was playing the grand campaign with allies and the usual invasion of rabaul occured. Now the jap AI didn't assign any real escorts and i had a heavy cruiser at hand, Pensacola i think, so i sailed it full speed into the invasion TF and sank or damaged all the ships there, forcing the TF to run back to truk.

And this got me thinking that even a single ship can wreak serious havoc in the convoys running from west coast to OZ and various islands in the SWPAC area.

It seems to me that the japanese fleet in the beginning needs all of its CA's and most certainly its BB's for invasion support... not to speak of the CV's. But CL's are not particulary good for bombardments, they also lack ASW and good AA armament so for escorts they are not so good. But against unarmed ships and allied DD's they seem to do quite ok. So i thought that sending a TF with a CL (with good endurance preferrably) or two can bring some trouble to the allies. I also thought of using a CS for scouting and light attacks against merchant shipping. Remove the Pete's and put Jakes instead on them, they have 60kg bombs which are enough for unarmored ships. But CS might be needed elsewhere. Also .. how good are CS's in surface to surface combat?

Anyway .. what do you think, can, lets say 5 TF's with a single CL in each of them operating from Kwajalein do damage to allied convoys? Spotting would be an issue but subs with glen's and a single CS can be used for this purpose. Also in 41 and first month of 42 the LBA would be a non issue in SWPAC i think..

*end of rant*

[Feinder]

Of course, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander...

The best "surface raider" TFs are single CLs.

1. Single ships are much harder to spot, and will not be as likely to attract the attention of those nasty Bettys and Nells.
2. Even if you do get attacked by LBA, you stand a reasonable chance of evading the torps; your maneuver ratings are usually pretty good on the CLs.
3. The armor on a CL can stop anything (but a torp) that a Japanese DD/PG/PC can throw at you.

I've used the (somewhat) obsolete "D" class British CLs for raiders with some success. The "D" class is a little slow to match up with CVs or other CA (they only make 29 kts on a good day), and their AAA is sub-standard anyways (so you'd be likely to pick a different CL as escort to anyways). They also don't do as well in surface combat TFs against IJN cruisers, because most of their guns are unarmored, and they won't take much in a "real" surface action.

But you do have an impressive (unarmored) gun deck, and 2 salvos of torpedos which is also nice. Against merchants and destroyers, they do fine. The enemy torps on the destroyers you have to worry about (no matter what your ship is). But other than that, the worst he can do is knock some of your teeth out (again, unarmored turrets). But he won't sink you, because he can never penetrate your armor. So you saild around, sink 2 - 3 ships, and go home. Repair any gun-mounts that have been knocked out, and go out again.

It's not like you're going to use the "D" class CLs otherwise. And they're a much lower risk in the way of VPs than a "good" CL like Boise/Marblehead/Perth.

-F-

[janushm]

a better solution..........subs.....cheaper and well if the sub would get charged by 6dd's the cl wouldnt survive either.

[Terminus Est]

Excuse me for interfering, but I think the question at start was asked from the Japanese point of view, i.e. to use Jap CL's vs. Allied shipping from West Coast to Australia.

So, in that case, if you play 'historical' with japanese sub doctrine, the subs will almost never attack the allied cargo ships ... which I think was what the person who started this thread was tring to do from the starting point.

[esteban]

One possibility might be the Japanese "Katori" class CLs. These have reasonable endurance (about 6250 I think) and at 18 knots are too slow to be useful in surface combat. I don't know if they have a scout plane on board, like some of the Japanese CLs do.

Possibly you can use these in combination with some of the older Japanese DDs, that do not get depth charge racks or Long Lance torpedoes. If the ships get sunk, they are not much of a loss.

[tsimmonds]

I don't know if they have a scout plane on board, like some of the Japanese CLs do.

They have one Alf, like the others.

[janushm]

early on its not much of a loss but those crap DD's will get depth charges pretty soon iirc......and dd's they lack the punch............im still thinking CS...

but thinking about the germans in the atlantic....cruisers might do the trick..as long as they have as many long lances as possible..[Oi? 40 LL but might not be wise because of its radar]. the ship has to pack punch and be quick enough to run away from any escorts [30+ knots] katori class..well it can hardly keep up with a submerged sub

[janushm]

btw...if the escorts are near zero...take a fast BB...that should give him a scare........muhaahaha

[tsimmonds]

those crap DD's will get depth charges pretty soon iirc......

Some of them never get DCs in the game--although they did IRL (sigh....); these are very useful in the FT role however.

[janushm]

what class doesnt get em??? at least then i know..

[Raverdave]

All very well and good................but fuel is going to be the number one problem, unless you assign a AO and their speed would be the great undoing of the plan. As soon as the first convoy gets hit the allied player would flood the pacific with search planes. But besides that the idea/plan would give the allied player heart failure.............I am one of those players who routinely sends huge 50 to 100 ships TFs to Oz from the west coast with little more than two DEs or DDs as escort.[:-]

[WhoCares]

ORIGINAL: janushm

what class doesnt get em??? at least then i know..

Otori class DDs don't get DCs. At least not before late '43 or even '44, not sure when they are scheduled for an upgrade.

[EUBanana]

Isn't sending a lone BB out really, really asking for it? a high value asset like that, you'd have to sink 20 APs to equal it's VP value.

Just how invisible are single ship TFs to search planes? I tend to sling as many in a TF as possible, even when raiding, to up the AAA. I just assume you will get caught.

And finally... aren't lone CLs/BBs going to be juicy targets for subs?

[Honda]

I would agree with the CL option. I used the merchant raider tactics whem playing allies in UV using the Phoenix class CL. It's a good ship and belive me it didn't lack torps, it did a good job. The problem was of course that UV wasn't made for such tactics since the counter is just 1-2 days away but in WitP the tactics is more than viable. I would suggest it.

[Feinder]

I was kinda surprised for being reprimanded for putting in the Allied version of this, but hey, everybody has a bad day occasionally. The truth is, the principles are the same, but...

(* Puts on his samurai helmet *)

Ok, now I'm a Japanese Admiral, and my recommendations for surface raiders...

Float planes are unfortunately necessary. It can be assumed that the Allied player isn't going to be sending convoys within range of your Bettys/Nells. Which also means his convoy routes are far enough away from your own patrols to make spotting them random at best. Which means you're going to need to bring something along to spot with. Alfs are wonderful. If whatever you're using doesn't have an Alf, swap it out. You can't attack what you don't spot. You're talking about trying to spot your target far away, get an idea of his course, and then squat on his route, hoping to clobber him when he comes thru. Engaging him at a port hex (or within it's reaction range), is a good way to get yourself killed (since those ports tend to have PBYs at them).

The -bad- thing about search planes is that they give you away. Not your exact location, but (Allied admiral's hat, complete with ploomage pokes thru), everytime I get reports of "Alf spots AK Empire Ceylon" it means there's trouble afoot. So basically, wait until you get into where you think the sea-lane is. Turn on your Alfs for a turn. Take a look. Shut them down. Every other turn or so. Otherwise, if the Allied player gets wind that you're around, he's going to come to kill you. Hm. Actually just thought it might actualy be an interesting (if not over-complicated) ploy to put Glens on your raider, because the Allied player will suppose it's just a sub making a nuisance of himslef. Hm. Anyways, so for the breakdowns...


CV - Too big, too imporant for this task.

CVL/CVE/CVS - Some people like to use them as raiders. They certainly can do a fair job, but in my opinion, they attract too much attention, and require escorts, which then attract more attention. And they serve better with the fleet anyways (either as extra eyes in the case of CVS, or as extra CAP/punch in the case of CVLs) or in their own TF as smaller-slower-mini-KB.

BB - Too big, too imporant to risk. I think you really would get something like the "Bismark syndrome". You'd get one sortie. The spotting reports would make you as a BB (or even as a CA). The Allied player would think, "That's gotta be wrong. It's gotta be a CA or CL." You might hit one convoy, make a mess of things, and then everything within 500 miles comes looking for you.

CA - I think these are ideal for commerce raiding. Fast, long-ranged, and big enough guns (without being overkill), and have float planes, everything you want. However, your CAs are bit overtasked between CV escort and bombardment, who ever has enough of them? If you -really- want to use a CA, I'd use Furutaka class. At only 35 vps, it's not like you're risking a lot of points. And they're not as indespenisble as your other classes. You could argue that Tone with her 13(?) float planes would be wonderful (indeed it would), but again, she's the best CA that you've got, and is usually saddled in your CV TF. But she is very nice, but an important (and expensive) asset to risk.

CL - Don't use Kit/Oi. They're you're only ships with radar to start. They need to be with your CVs. Besides, without a float plane, how are you going to find anything?
Kuma/Nagara/Sendi/Yuburi - These are best. They've got reasonable speed and endurance, and a float plane. Your surface groups will be missing their torpedoes, so we're only talking about committing 2 - 4 vessals to raiding.

DD/PG/PC - The problem with using these classes is that, they're just as likely to be clobbered by the escort(s). They lack range, and frankly they have more important tasks.

This samurai helmet is itchy. Can I take it off now?

-F-

[castor troy]

I always put up a commerce-raider-TF like this: 2 CA, 2 CL and 3 DD. As I´ve only been playing the Japanese side until now it has worked pretty good. With this constellation you´ve got enough of torps and with the 2 CA you don´t have probs if you engage 2 or 3 DD as escorts.

[Terminus Est]

I was kinda surprised for being reprimanded for putting in the Allied version of this, but hey, everybody has a bad day occasionally. The truth is, the principles are the same, but...

(* Puts on his samurai helmet *)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude ... it's just that, after seeing 2 replies from the US point of view to a question about Japanese tactics, I got the feeling people had misunderstood the question - which was quite possible by reading it too fast. So I tried to bring attention to it for future posters.

Also, I think Japanese and allied tactics in this domain are very different, since the allied subs will go for shipping while the jap ones mostly won't (I only play with jap sub doctrine on; to me, changing that would be like having no PH attack and no jap surprise: a different war altogether). So, while it's of course interesting to have the US point of view on this subject, it really doesn't help Japanese planning here.

All my apologies if anyone felt offended: that was really not my intention.

So, yes, you can remove that helmet now [;)]

[Iron Duke]

Hi,

Not sure of this but i think the japanese had a few merchant ships converted to 'Armed merchant Cruisers' , i dont think these were 'Q' ships(flying false colours) just merchies with big guns.

found some info = Aikoku Maru,Hokoku Maru and Kiyozumi Maru
10437 tons
21 Knots
8 x 140mm/50
2 x 80mm
4 x 25mm
4 x 533mm TT
2 X Rufe's
operated in pairs but info is a bit sketchy , but would appear that they acted just like regular warships ?

[Honda]

I would have to agree with everthing you said.Cruiser based Glens are a great idea. However, I'd advise agains the tactic as a Jap for one sole reason - bad damage control. A bit of floatation damage can ruin your day. As Jap you never want to go too far away from major ports and merchant raiders would have to go the farthest. That spells bad news. Allies don't have such problems and have much less risk involved. Not only that, but Japs can't afford to lose ships for no or little return, and merchies are a very little return. But that's my opinion. It can be done, even succesfuly, but I don't think the reward outweighs the risk.

[Oznoyng]

I put together a quick reference for IJN DD's and their upgrades. Download it and then open it in Excel to pretty it up. I put it in this post: fb.asp?m=742867&key=

The only IJN DD that does not ever get DC's is the Momi class, of which there are 3 to start iirc. Of the rest, the Fubuki, Mutsuki, and Kamikaze never get better than Type 91 DC's. Akitsuki, Shimakaze, Akitsuki, Matsu, and Tachibana get Type 2 DC's (the best IJN DC) and the remainder get Type 95's at some point (middle value DC's).

With a 3000 endurance, the Momi aren't going to be able to raid very far and they are more useful as FT's. Like most of the posters here, the only class I would risk for this task is CL's (or possibly CS Mizuho/Nisshin) since the upgrades for those come so late and the endurance of the CL's is more reasonable. I would not risk Kitakami or Oi until more radar ships were available.