Iraqi insurgent uprising

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a19999577
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by a19999577 »

ORIGINAL: RBWhite

Looks really good!!

If you would refrain from the terms Sunni & Shiite, I think it adds a religious aspect [Kurds, Turkaman are also Sunni, there are also Christians ] to the thread.

So a discription by ethnic group would be more appropriate, Turkaman, Kurds, Arabs and possible Iranian Persians.

I think the thread should steer clear of division by religious sect.

As we all know there way to much sects in the world already. [just a little humor][:D]

Thread look good Keep it going[:)]

Thanks

Rick White

Yes, it would probably be more precise to talk about 'Sunni Arabs' and 'Shiite Arabs' rather than 'Sunnis' and 'Shiites' outright.

However, as much as I'd like to live in a Lennonesque world ["...and no religion too..." -Imagine], I think religious divides have played, are playing and will continue to play a role in the insurgency's dynamic. And as to its role in the thread, I think we've steered clear of labelling any of the two groups in any negative light, let alone debate which one represents 'true' Islam.

Cheers.
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RBWhite
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by RBWhite »

Agreeable.

I wouldn't want to see the thread locked up prematurely.

Just a concern.

Thanks

Rick White
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by IronDuke_slith »

Iran. Quite a large country, larger than Iraq anyway. Very tough terrain. Much tougher than Iraq anyway. I'm not all that confident that the US Army and Marine corps would be able to execute a Blitzkrieg reminiscent of Iraq 2003. On the other hand, the collapse of the Taliban in mountainous Afghanistan was fairly quick, wasn't it? But let's face it, the Taliban were something of an irregular militia, right? And they probably didn't really have much in planning in case of a US intervention. The Iranians have probably been seriously studying how to defend themselves in case of a US invasion since 9/11, and all the more since the invasion of Iraq. What the US has in its favor is the possibility of making a two-front invasion of Iran [from Iraq and Afghanistan]. But on the other hand, it'd be a third war front for the US, how many wars can it handle?

My understanding was that the US Army is theoretically geared up for a two front war if required. Although quite what the US public would make of sending another 130 000 soldiers on a mission similiar or worse to the one in Iraq is anybody's guess. I suspect major ground operations elsewhere in the world are out until the troops are out of Iraq. Particularly since US the drift towards unilateral action in foreign policy means a coalition of any kind is unlikely, so the US would have to bear the brunt of the fighting again.

I also wouldn't use the word Blitz for the invasion of Iraq. It's not a great word, and it doesn't mean a great deal these days, but the American invasion was not WWII German style doctrine. Their blitz was about breakthrough and encirclement, but the two prongs aimed at Baghdad were all about something else. They never stopped to encircle anyone.

Although a different method, I think the plan to take Baghdad essentially conformed to what was been basic American doctrine since Grant, victory through overwhelming firepower. I thought the two armoured prongs essentially acted like tripwires. Every time they hit resistance, the troops fixed it and destroyed it with either their own organice firepower or more usually in conjunction with overwhelming fire support assets. Simple but effective, although the basic strategy was to take the head off by removing it at the nexk.

Iran, I still contend, simply isn't on. We can postulate how it might be done, but if a previously secular country like Iraq can produce the resistance it has, Iran would be far worse. You'd have to occupy it permanently, as I don't see a credible alternative. In Afghanistan and Iraq you could at least theorise there was a silent majority who would welcome regime change and embrace it. I don't think we are there with Iran, yet. There are lots of moderates, yes, but countries have a habit of uniting when under attack, and I just don't see it.

Your comments concerning the implanting of democracy etc are well made, and I fear you may well be closer to the truth than I. Pre-war there was allegedly a secular majority in Iraq. I guess we have to hope that they exist and they make themselves heard in the privacy of the ballot box away from threatening eyes. If they don't, then I don't see any easy exit strategy. Not nice to contemplate as we in the UK have tens of thousands of Soldiers on the ground as well.

Regards,
IronDuke
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by Golf33 »

I'd be careful of describing the Kurds as "completely reliable troops for the Coalition". I think that for the moment, they happen to see their interests as aligned with ours.

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RBWhite
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by RBWhite »

IronDuke

You inadvertently quoted and replied to a19999577 under my reply.

This ones for you a19999577.

Regards

Rick White
a19999577
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by a19999577 »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

I also wouldn't use the word Blitz for the invasion of Iraq. It's not a great word, and it doesn't mean a great deal these days, but the American invasion was not WWII German style doctrine. Their blitz was about breakthrough and encirclement, but the two prongs aimed at Baghdad were all about something else. They never stopped to encircle anyone.

Point well taken. It wasn't a Blitzkrieg as such then. I shall reformulate my position: I'm not sure the US Army would be able to carry out such a speedy operation in Iran as it did in Iraq due to the nature of the terrain.
Iran, I still contend, simply isn't on. We can postulate how it might be done, but if a previously secular country like Iraq can produce the resistance it has, Iran would be far worse. You'd have to occupy it permanently, as I don't see a credible alternative. In Afghanistan and Iraq you could at least theorise there was a silent majority who would welcome regime change and embrace it. I don't think we are there with Iran, yet. There are lots of moderates, yes, but countries have a habit of uniting when under attack, and I just don't see it.

I agree with you on this. In addition, I think they are probably in a mad rush to develop a nuclear weapon and other weapons of mass destruction. As far as the rest of the world outside the US is concerned, the general feeling is that Iraq got rid of absolutely all of its weapons of mass destruction in a desperate attempt to avoid a US invasion. I once read on the news that in the days before the invasion the Saddam regime made a Gaddafi-esque gesture of "we'll do whatever you want, just don't invade us!", which didn't do them much good.

So, as far as they probably believe, the Iranians are in quite a pickle:

a- Rush the WMDs and get invaded.
b- Disarm and get invaded anyway.

It doesn't seem that difficult to figure out what their choice is going to be. The North Koreans are probably thinking the same.

Now, there seems to be some sort of taboo in this board regarding a possible nuke in Tehran's hands. Could someone enlighten me on why this is?
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KG Erwin
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by KG Erwin »

Excellent discussions, gentlemen, BUT, how would you game it? Please remember that solutions are being gamed in the nether regions of certain Pentagon offices as we speak.
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a19999577
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by a19999577 »

Yup, it is probably being played out in Washington and Tehran. When it comes to planning, this is probably the biggest difference between the Taliban and Iraq and Iran. While Iraq and Iran probably had military simulations capability, and in Iraq's case experience in fighting against the US, the Taliban had absolutely no way of knowing how US Air power would affect them. The Iraqis probably realized they didn't have much of a chance, so they folded. Not that it did them much good, though. The Libyans pretty much went down the same road.

Iran and North Korea, however, are not. So they have either figured out they have some possibility of withstanding a full-scale US invasion, or they bluffing until they can make viable deterrents/countermeasures.

Wargaming, in its origin was no mere hobby...
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RBWhite
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RE: Iraqi insurgent uprising

Post by RBWhite »

To quote a19999577 "Wargaming, in its origin was no mere hobby"

I think the original staffs of Microprose and Origin and a few others back in the old days would have jumped on the last year or so in Iraq in a heart beat and had at least one or two simuations each on the market based on some fact and alot of speculation. As things developed they would have released game patches to a newer version or rereleased the game.

If both of those companies were still around as first created the Wargaming industry would be alot different.

So, as to how would you game it today? I don't know, to much lost imagination through profit margins and lawyers.
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