1.40 OOB Issues

[fbastos]

By the way, the issue with British/Australian warships having Wing Commanders commanding their embarked floatplanes... is that DOA?

I understand that's probably something in the code defaulting Wing Cmdrs to these units, but that could be solved by forcing some Lieutenant on the OOB... one less thing for Mike Wood to worry about.

F.

PS: Of course, there would still be one issue left, that is the embarked floatplanes can only change leaders to Sqn Ldr, but then who cares about changing the floatplanes leaders?

[Wallymanowar]

Note from the general forum that there are two 413 squadrons - only the Canadian one should be present.

[pasternakski]

I lost track of this along the way. Are VMF squadrons going to be changed to upgrade to F4Us instead of F6Fs?

Thanks to pry for his explanation on the other thread.

[Halsey]

Just curious, and I don't have the answer, but why don't the Chinese get any ground reinforcements after the first few months of the war? They are the only country left out in this area.

Does anyone know where an OOB for the Chinese can be located?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Just curious, and I don't have the answer, but why don't the Chinese get any ground reinforcements after the first few months of the war? They are the only country left out in this area.

Does anyone know where an OOB for the Chinese can be located?

I'm usually looking for a menu for Chinese, myself.

It may be that Chinese "recruits" are all funnelled into existing formations.

[Halsey]

Yes, I like Chinese too![:D]

I just find it strange that they are the only country that doesn't receive new formations.

[tsimmonds]

I guess it's just assumed that IJ will provide China with a steady stream of "fresh" formations.....

[dr. smith]

Just in Feb '42 of my game (damn you SINGAPORE!!!) and found these that looked a bit suspicious:
RAAF 22 Sqdn - Wirraways to A20B Bostons
273 Sqdn - Vildebeast to Hurricane II
243 Sqdn - Buffalo I to Dakota I

Amazingly, I researched before posting and found:
RAAF 22 Sqdn - the Ozzies took a shipment of A20s bound for DEI and put them in the 22nd, so legit
273 Sqdn - actually DID go to Hurricanes (though they were Fulmars mostly during the Ceylon raid)
243 Sqdn - was mostly wiped out in Singapore, was reformed in Oustam Northumberland, by June 42 were flying Spits Vb's.

So on 243 Squadron a question remains, is the switch to Dakotas to save a squadron spot of an incoming Transpo Sqdn? If so, OK!

Actually maybe the Dakotas will do better against a Zero than the Buffs.

Upgraded to 1.4 in 28 Jan game-frame, now at 12 Feb.

Edit: my sources were: RAF = http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/sqn_hist.html
and for the RAAF: http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/022sqn.htm

[fbastos]

Amazingly, I researched before posting and found:
RAAF 22 Sqdn - the Ozzies took a shipment of A20s bound for DEI and put them in the 22nd, so legit
273 Sqdn - actually DID go to Hurricanes (though they were Fulmars mostly during the Ceylon raid)
243 Sqdn - was mostly wiped out in Singapore, was reformed in Oustam Northumberland, by June 42 were flying Spits Vb's.

Hah, what about them 62 Sqn and others going from Blenheim I to Hurricane II...

Them crazy brits...

F.

[Herrbear]

The switch to Dakotas was that was the type of plane being used by the squardron when they were resent to the Pacific in early '45.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h243.html

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: fbastos


Hah, what about them 62 Sqn and others going from Blenheim I to Hurricane II...

Them crazy brits...

F.

I show that scenario 15 converts them from Blenheim I to Hudsons.

[RevRick]

Hey, Pry..

In Sc. 14 I just noticed the the USS Langley (CVL) shows up on or about 15 Sep 42 - Complete with a deckload of F6Fs and TBMs. Thanks for the present, guys, but... what do I do when the F6F's run out.

Also - I am not terribly sure about all of the Wirraways on the board in Australia upgrading to Vengeances. Seems to me they should have been Boomerangs.

[fbastos]

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos


Hah, what about them 62 Sqn and others going from Blenheim I to Hurricane II...

Them crazy brits...

F.


I show that scenario 15 converts them from Blenheim I to Hudsons.

Ah, pardon, it's the 60 Sqn that upgrades from Blenheim to Hurrican II.

But I posted that as a joke; I checked on the 60 Sqn history, and they indeed moved from Blenheim I to Hurricane II - probably after wipe out in Malaya.

F.

[dr. smith]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Also - I am not terribly sure about all of the Wirraways on the board in Australia upgrading to Vengeances. Seems to me they should have been Boomerangs.

From looking at the RAAF museum site (http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/squadrons.htm) earlier, I found lots of what seemed oddities. For your comment, several RAAF squadrons indeed went from Wirrways to Vengences. What is REALLY odd is after Vengences, they then went to Liberator heavy bombers (RAAF Sqdns 21, 24, 25 from imcomplete research).

I guess back then, what mattered was you knew HOW to fly, it didn't matter alot WHAT you flew. Morison states that the Navy pilots aboard the Hornet kept playing the Army flyboys in poker, hoping have them incur a HUGE debt and "sell" their spot in the Dolittle Raid to the squid, who would then fly to Tokyo.

None succumbed!

[Jim D Burns]

After reading this:

"Despite Chiang's apparent unification of China by military force, his army incorporated many units more loyal to their former regional warlords than to his new central government. Nationalist Army units were not only uneven in loyalty but also in quality. On paper China had 3.8 million men under arms in 1941. They were organized into 246 "front-line" divisions, with another 70 divisions assigned to rear areas. Perhaps as many as forty Chinese divisions had been equipped with European-manufactured weapons and trained by foreign, particularly German and Soviet, advisers. The rest of the units were under strength and generally untrained. Overall, the Nationalist Army impressed most Western military observers as more reminiscent of a nineteenth- than a twentieth-century army."

along with the rest of the history, I've been giving some thought to how the Chinese might be bolstered given the current rules for ground combat. Assuming no major changes get done to the ground combat system, I think we might be able to help the Chinese out by creating some Warlord units for each of the bases in China.

These units would be large immobile units that represent the massive army China had for defense, but never actually used in an offensive manner due to warlords hording them for personal power. These units would need to be about 800-1000 squads or more with maybe a divisions worth of supporting heavy equipment as well (they were not very modern units, but they were VERY numerous). The key is to make them immobile CD type units that can not be moved.

This will make offensives and base captures much more difficult for Japan, but keep China's offensive capabilities very low.

I also think all of China's divisions that start attached to Southeast Asia HQ should start the game at 60 experience. These divisions were mostly trained and equipped by western nations, and actually preformed well until outflanked in burma.

Jim

[witpqs]

Jim,

This is a pretty decent idea. I hope it gets due consideration.

[Kereguelen]

Hi,

according to M.J. Whitley's "Destroyers of World War Two", the Dutch destroyers of the Van Ghent (Evertsen, Kortenaer, Piet Hein) and Van Galen classes (Witte de With, Banckert, Van Nes) had a minelaying capacity of 24 mines each.

Would be nice to see this in the game!

K

[Don Bowen]

I've noticed that the Dutch air OOB is screwed up in WITP - both composition and naming. It is apparently based on the table on Page 59 of "Bloody Shambles" - one of the few errors in that book. The table compresses out the III Groep and assigns IV Groep assets to III Groep. Other references in the book are correct and the table may be the result of a type-setting error. The correct allocation of the major Dutch air groups was:

I Groep - 2 Afdeling of Martin Bombers
II Groep - 1 or 2 Afdeling of Martin Bombers ***
III Groep - 3 Afdeling of Martin Bombers ***
IV Groep - 3 Afdeling of Fighters - 1 of Hawk 75, 1 of CW-21, 1 of B-339 (formed after mobilization)
V Groep - 3 Afdeling of B339 Fighters

*** Normally Dutch Bomber groups included two squadrons but the second squadron of II Groep was transferred to III Groep in order to form a 3-squadron group for deployment to Singapore. I THINK the total strength was 6 Squadrons on Martins but many histories do mention both 2e-VIG-II and 3e-VIG-III. I don't know if this is the same unit being referenced by both it's original and modified designation but Leo Niehorster's excellent site lists both 2e-VIG-II and 3e-VIG-III and gives a different commander for each.

Fighter Groups were intended to have three squadrons but both of them had only two when mobilization began (just before the war). They were expanded to three squadrons each using reserve Brewsters and rounding up all available pilots (including instructors from flight schools, which were closed).

An excellent list of units, their names, and deployments available from either of these references (the Dutch East Indies site is more detailed)

References:
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/Dutch_OOB.html
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/016 ... y_air.html

My recommendations:

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

After reading this:

"Despite Chiang's apparent unification of China by military force, his army incorporated many units more loyal to their former regional warlords than to his new central government. Nationalist Army units were not only uneven in loyalty but also in quality. On paper China had 3.8 million men under arms in 1941. They were organized into 246 "front-line" divisions, with another 70 divisions assigned to rear areas. Perhaps as many as forty Chinese divisions had been equipped with European-manufactured weapons and trained by foreign, particularly German and Soviet, advisers. The rest of the units were under strength and generally untrained. Overall, the Nationalist Army impressed most Western military observers as more reminiscent of a nineteenth- than a twentieth-century army."

along with the rest of the history, I've been giving some thought to how the Chinese might be bolstered given the current rules for ground combat. Assuming no major changes get done to the ground combat system, I think we might be able to help the Chinese out by creating some Warlord units for each of the bases in China.

These units would be large immobile units that represent the massive army China had for defense, but never actually used in an offensive manner due to warlords hording them for personal power. These units would need to be about 800-1000 squads or more with maybe a divisions worth of supporting heavy equipment as well (they were not very modern units, but they were VERY numerous). The key is to make them immobile CD type units that can not be moved.

This will make offensives and base captures much more difficult for Japan, but keep China's offensive capabilities very low.

I also think all of China's divisions that start attached to Southeast Asia HQ should start the game at 60 experience. These divisions were mostly trained and equipped by western nations, and actually preformed well until outflanked in burma.

Jim

JIM. This is a terrific idea, and should be relatively easy to implement as it just calls
for adding in some additional non-mobile units. Solves the problem of the Japanese
going wild in China early while still permitting them to make some progress as the
war goes on. And does it without giving the Chinese anything that they could use to
make a-historic advances either. Simple and elegant---it beats the ideas I had been
going to propose out with no regrets on my part. Hope someone will take it to heart
on the design staff.

[BPRE]

DMS Long is included twice in the database for all scenarios. One ship (position 4326) is appearing 421106 and sunk 450106) the other one appearing 430215 (position 4317) but also sunk 450106).

/BPRE