Doolittle Raid, Yamamoto assasination, and other special ops

Dan in Toledo · Post by **Dan in Toledo** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:56 am

Will it be possible to replicate special opps like:

1. the Doolittle raid
2. the Yamamoto assasination by the P-38s
3. the simple act of hiding the eastern fleet at their secret base at addu atoll in the maldives
4. the Chindits
5. midget submarines in pearl harbor
6. the attempt by the japs to replicate pearl harbor with floatplanes from the rendevous point of the island of french frigate shoals (this attempt was thwarted due to code breaking)
7. the japs use of floatplanes to bomb the pacific NW forests and other similar attempts
8. the attempt by the germans to reenforce the japanese after the german surrender by ordering a uboar with 10 Me-262s in crates and 1000lbs of uranium on board (this attempt was thrwated because the uboat captain surrendered instead)
9. using the Yamato as a giant kamikaze to beach itself on okinawa and be used as a beach battery
10. using Ozawa as a decoy and pulling off halsey's 3rd fleet to cape engano
11. richard sorge's spy ring in tokyo
12. the communists: pacwar only deals with chang and the nationalists
13. the invasion of manchuria by the soviets?
14. the possible "northern option" explored by the japs (they chose the "southern option" against the british, dutch, americans, etc...)
15. the use of poison gas by the japs against the chinese
16. the public discontent caused by ghandi in india
17. ho chi minh's activities in indochina
18. australian coastwatchers in the solomon islands
19. filipino guerrila activites
20. admiral koga's plane crashing due to a storm, thus depriving the combined fleet of its leader
21. the first carrier strike force twice transferring its pilots and planes to land air bases during the solomon campaign
22. nagumo's utter stupidity at midway
23. jap shelling of a california oil refinery in 12/41
24. possible jap attack on the panama canal that, if successful, could have greatly hindered the movement of the fleet

these are just ideas
does anyone have any thoughts????

Dan in Toledo · Post by **Dan in Toledo** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:47 pm

aw come on guys?
these are just ideas I had
I think these are interesting facets of the Pacific War. Any thoughts on how to include them in a game?

Jo van der Pluym · Post by **Jo van der Pluym** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:35 pm

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo:
aw come on guys?
these are just ideas I had
I think these are interesting facets of the Pacific War. Any thoughts on how to include them in a game?

Here some other ideas

1. Airborne Assaults/Transport
2. Raids
3. Coastal Artillery
4. Junks
5. Special Forces
6. German subs and Raiders
7. Godzilla

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:31 pm

Your list is impressive, but it's too long for me to go through in detail. A few of these items are already covered in Uncommon Valor and will also be in WitP. Many of them could be included, but probably won't simply because the time to put them in will take too long compared to their actual impact on the war. At this point I can't give you a difinitive list of which ones Gary is going to deal with, but I do know we have paratroopers, air transport and coast watchers (and probably other things on your list as well).

Joel

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:26 am

Actually, It is my opinion that
Yamamoto commited suicide.

It is well known that he knew that the
code with which he sent his itinerary
to the naval bases was compromised.

It is my opinion that he knew that after
Midway, and with the loss of Guadalcanal
he simply didnt wish to see the end.

Just a comment.

Ringbolt · Post by **Ringbolt** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:15 am

Originally posted by Chiteng:
Actually, It is my opinion that
Yamamoto commited suicide.

Suicide is a little strong, but there is no doubt that Yamamoto was very fatalistic about his country's and his personal future, much as Patton was. He saw the writing on the wall FAR before anyone else on either side. I would say that he was careless where others would not have, knowing the end was as good as decided.

Ringbolt

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 12:55 am

Shore Batteries (coastal artillery) should be in the new game. 2 IJN destroyers went down in the first attempt at Wake, and the IJN never even attempted to bombard Singapore, because of the shore batteries. They were only on certain bases, and should be programmable as non-movable ships with armor, durability and gun ratings and would be repaired in the same manner as ships (port and shipyard repair points) They should be hard to destroy, but not impossible and they should be able to force a 2 round surface action on any enemy TFs that enter the hex.
That will kep the Japanese from bombarding singapore daily which wat not historical and happens every time when I play PW as the Allies.

Ringbolt · Post by **Ringbolt** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:43 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
Shore Batteries (coastal artillery) should be in the new game. 2 IJN destroyers went down in the first attempt at Wake,

Not only that, but Wake's defence battalion only had 5" guns, plenty deadly against DD's and unarmored ships. The 14" guns at Singapore, and whatever the big guns were at Bataan, should make it suicidal to take most any ship into range of them. One of the most annoying things about Pacwar was watching an amphibious fleet sail right up to singapore and unload.

Ringbolt

gators · Post by **gators** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:03 am

Chiteng I would love to see anything like a source you base your opinion on; I'm familiar with Yamamoto's prediction about running wild for six months, and then the deluge of US production would begin. I think suicide is a very strong opinion. I'd also love to know how Y knew the code was compromised. Sources please.

Dan in Toledo · Post by **Dan in Toledo** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:17 pm

I wholeheartedly agree about the shore batteries. Any ship attempting to bombard Bataan, Singapore, Truk, Wake, Oahu and a few others would have been in for a rude surprise. All had some deadly guns on them.

Mine fields should also be allowed. Many, many ships were sunk due to mines: more Jap than allied. The Amagiri (the DD that sunk pt109) hit a mine in the east indies and sank. B-29s would fly off the coast of japan and drop mines. Blackett strait of new georgia was heavily mined.

These are just examples.

Oh yeah: Yamamoto did not committ suicide!!
Thats rediculous!!

Ringbolt · Post by **Ringbolt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:14 am

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo:
I wholeheartedly agree about the shore batteries. Any ship attempting to bombard Bataan, Singapore, Truk, Wake, Oahu and a few others would have been in for a rude surprise. All had some deadly guns on them.

Also, I dont know about any other cities on the west coast, but I have been to the forts in LA where coastal artillery were placed in WWII. They were also 14" I think, and because of their height and construction, they seemed pretty well indestructable from naval guns.

Ringbolt

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 9:53 am

Freyburg,

Did I list a source?
Your responce implies you didnt read my post.
It CLEARLY lables the ENTIRE post as
MY OPINION. As such it is no more than that,
and no defence is needed since I am NOT
defending my thesis with YOU in the audience.
I got my degree (in history) in 1972 and do NOT feel the need to go thru it again.

If you are saying that it is unsupported and that you disagree, that is fine. Do THAT.
But then be prepared to see ANY assertion I dont like, that is equally unsupported dismissed with this post as reference.

The one thing I have learned about arguing
history is that no amount of reference will
convince anyone who doesnt wish to recognize it. It is like asking if Churchill used the
Canadians at Dieppe because he knew they
would be hammered, and didnt want 'English'
troops to suffer. It is like asking if Ney
had not been commanding the right wing at
Waterloo and instead Davout, would Napoleon
have won?

Such questions invite debate, generating heat, and very little light.

If you are saying (apparently) that Yamamoto
was NOT aware that his code was broken,
I have no intention of running down Book X
just so that you can counter w Book Y.

The evidence is there for anyone w serious intrest. The man is dead and ONLY he knows why he did whatever.

Doug Olenick · Post by **Doug Olenick** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:00 pm

Think about this. The Normandy Coast was covered with German heavy artillery, not 14-inchers but big, and it failed to do any damage to the larger ships offshore sinking only a few destroyers. Same goes for the French coastal batteries defending North Africa. They fired a lot, but had no impact on the landings.

It is my opinion, lets make that clear!!, that if the Japanese wished they could have forced their way past the island forts off Batann and Corregidor. Same holds true for Singapore. The fact that they decided to avoid these guns had more to do with it being easier to take Singapore from the land side. As for the Philipines. Once the main islands were captured there was no need to directly attack the forts, they would fall in time.

gators · Post by **gators** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:22 pm

Chiteng I was trying to undersand what your opinion was based on. When I got my history degree even professors who gave opinions would explain why, with sources if asked, they held that opinion. Don't you believe that if the Japanese were wise to the fact that we were reading their mail that they would have changed their codes. I can't find any refernce that they did around the time of Y's death.

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:25 pm

We already have coast defense units in Uncommon Valor so you will see them in Pacific War. I've seen some small 5-6" guns chew up invasion convoys and destroyer bombardment groups so you should be happy with the effects.

Joel

Dan in Toledo · Post by **Dan in Toledo** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 11:01 pm

Joel:

Great news on the shore batteries. That would make the game so much more realistic. I'd love to see Jap BBs come to bombard Manilla Bay or Singapore. They would be in for a rude surprise!!!

What about minefields?

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 11:50 pm

Dan,
Check out the product description page. I believe minelayers and mine sweepers are included...

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 3:09 am

Ok if you have a degree then you are aware of how subjective a debate on any aspect of
historical event is.

I have studied war for 30+ years now and
you gain a 'feeling' for certain things.

Like:

Napoleon for all his genius was a jerk.
Alexander wasnt alot better.
Churchill was an unprincipled liar, who liked to play god.

Edward II may have been a better monarch
that his PR would suggest.

Arthur may have actually been a Scot.

The list of such 'impressions' is long.
They are an amalgam of all study on the subject. I regret not being able to read
Japanese. I wonder at times how much information is lost in translation.

Yamamoto was hardly a fool. He knew that
somehow the Midway operation had been
compromised. He also knew the character
of his enemy. After the failure of his
'air offensive' in the Soloman Islands
and New Georgia he knew he could not win.

There is a book(biography?)I would have to really dig, in any case,
it is an 'impression' that makes me feel
he knew exactly what he was doing when he sent his itinerary. He could not have known
exactly what the result would be NO.
But he could have known there would be one.

It is like asking if Lord Nelson really loved his wife. You just get the impression
he didnt.

gators · Post by **gators** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 5:13 am

Chiteng Y. was so ambivalent about things. I'm sure some Japanese thought he spent too long at Harvard, especially for a Japanese navy commander. My "feeling" for the situation after your clarification (thanks) is that if he was intent on suicide; why not sepuke. I've studied a couple of languages and your concern about translations is well grounded. I didn't know you also had a history degree when I read your first post, I would have been more inclined to give your idea more opinion. I thought it was some newby half baked SWG. It's sort of like the Wingate deal anytime a charismatic leader dies mysteriously there is always speculation. thanks for the replies.

D. Olenick · Post by **D. Olenick** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 8:18 pm

Chiteng,

Studying history is hardly subjective. If you wish to make statements, Napolean was a jerk, for example explain why. If Yammamoto felt the Midway operation was compromised in any way why did he let his fleet fall into a trap? There is no indication in anything that I have ever read that mentions the Japanese suspected their codes were being broken. I would be interested in where you came up with the info. Do you have a source?