Review of HoI2 over at wargamers

[RBWhite]

Well he has been around awhile.

And he did use proper gramar

Could have been alittle less descriptive.

He also does seem to get right to the point.

[Hortlund]

Well, I dont think too many of you guys realize it, but you have just witnessed the end of cwif.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Play the game first please...

Can't do that ... that would require that I buy it ...

A bad rep is a bad thing in the software business ... once you get it, there is no way to undo it.

Since I can't return it for a refund, I will never lay out the money.

Their only real solution is to produce a demo which is the full game and lets people play for 30 days with a key they get. Pay and the key gets converted to non-demo.

Thats what happens once you've lost your customers faith. It costs you to get it back.

You should be very careful with what you are saying about losing customer faith. Witp is at 1.4 right now, and we still have land units retreating through enemy units and the leader bug is still alive and well. I remember what you said months ago about how multiple patches that dont fix the real bugs is a sign of something...do you remember what it was?

Can I return witp for a refund? Did you have a surprise tax-issue pop up and make the game more expensive to the customer than it first appeared? Was there a very peculiar $ to € convertion debacle?

The Paradox bashing is getting very old, especially since Matrix track record aint exactly spotless either.

[Warfare1]

Well, if a review of a game calls it "The Greatest WWII Strategy game ever made", then it will fall under close scrutiny.

Personally, I hope HoI2 is a GREAT WWII game.

The IGN review was better than the wargamer review, in that it went into more specifics. It also detailed the first hints of problems with the game (manual still not effective enough; numerous pop-up windows; chore of selecting units; complexity not for MP; etc).

However, the IGN review also failed to mention a single thing about how the AI performed. The reviewer of this article mentioned that he played HoI2 over the holidays, so he must have had lots of time to play the game.

Yet, not a single word was written about how the AI performed in both the scenarios and the Grand Campaign.[&:]

I just find this quite puzzling, since this was such a big issue with the original.

Again, I hope this is a great game.

But I am still being cautious with this title...

[Hortlund]

Having worked on HoI2 since January last year....what exactly is it you want to know about the AI?

[Hortlund]

Eh..."not for MP"?

To my knowledge, HoI2 is the first strategic wargame that allows several players to control the same nation. You can have a MP game with 5 guys playing Germany against the AI or 3 guys playing UK and 2 Germany and 2 Russia...or whatever.

[Kung Karl]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I wouldn't have a Paradox game stuck up my @$$ sideways even if it felt good.

So go advertise them somewhere else.

Mature statement. Myself I am lucky enogh to be open minded and play both Matrix and Paradox games. I do not refuse to play some compnies games. So I have more games to choose from and probably don't mis many titles becasue of me being a fanboy of one company.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Having worked on HoI2 since January last year....what exactly is it you want to know about the AI?

Hey, thanks for the offer [:)]

As a beta tester, you are allowed to talk about the game?

Great.

The nitty gritty (or what I would like to have seen detailed in a review):

How does the AI stand up in the Grand Campaign when the player chooses Germany? Does the Soviet AI defend properly? Does it protect its capitals and other strategic areas (since the USSR will fall if these are captured). And how long, generally, does it take for the USSR to fall? ie Is the East Front a slugfest?

Does Britain perform well? Does it send reinforcements to North Africa and India?

What about the Battle of Britain? Will German AI bomb and British fighters defend? How effective is this? In original HoI this just didn't work very well.

Is the world economy stable? Is there really a need to trade? Is the player awash in resources in a just a couple of years? Are there any scarce resources?

Will the AI counter your flanking moves?

In the Grand Campaign will the USA AI launch EFFECTIVE amphibious landings in Europe? How good are they? Will Britain do the same? If the player is Germany, will these landings test him?

Since this game will rise and fall on how well the USSR AI holds up, just how good is the USSR in research, building units, deploying and fighting? How long does the USSR AI hold out against a human playing Germany?

How well does the USA AI do against Japan? Are there naval clashes? Will both Japan and the USA take over islands? Are carriers effective in the game (ie do they actually work?) Will Japan expand in Asia? Does Britain/Australia counter these moves?

As a player have you been surprised by any AI moves and strategies?

These are just a few questions off the top of my head that NO review to date has even hinted upon, and yet are things that every wargamer needs to know.

These questions are mainly aimed at the Grand Campaign. I haven't touched upon how good the individual scenarios may be.

Thanks for taking the time to answer [:)]

[VicKevlar]

Alrighty......only gonna say this once. We are not going to tolerate flame wars with other boards or companies. Take those comments to the locations where they belong....but not here.

Any and all personal shots/insults are an absolute no go at this station. All they will get you is a fast exit from Matrix. Period.

Now, let's see if this thread continues on topic. If not, it will be locked.

[Hortlund]

How does the AI stand up in the Grand Campaign when the player chooses Germany? Does the Soviet AI defend properly? Does it protect its capitals and other strategic areas (since the USSR will fall if these are captured). And how long, generally, does it take for the USSR to fall? ie Is the East Front a slugfest?

The AI in HoI2 is very good. That goes for all nations. Each nation has a specific AI designed for that nation only. Most of the big nations have separate AIs for different parts of the war. So for example, USSR might start in 36 with a buildup AI (focused on building stuff) then change in 39 to an agressive AI (focused on places like Finland and Baltics etc) then swithch again in 41 to a defensive AI, then in 43 to an offensive AI etc etc. The USSR usually dont fall.

Does Britain perform well? Does it send reinforcements to North Africa and India?

Same as above really. UK too has different AIs for different periods in time.

What about the Battle of Britain? Will German AI bomb and British fighters defend? How effective is this? In original HoI this just didn't work very well.

Same as above. The German AI favours pretty historical moves in the early war. Thus you should see attacks on Norway and Denmark after Poland has fallen and before France etc. But all of your questions so far are AI-related, and since the AI switches over time via hidden AI-events its kinda hard to give a general answer. During some parts of the game, the AI will defend, during other parts of the game it will be agressive.

Is the world economy stable? Is there really a need to trade? Is the player awash in resources in a just a couple of years? Are there any scarce resources?

World economy is completely reworked. There is no world market anymore. If you want to trade for resources you have to strike individual deals with individual nations. Resources, like they should be, very scarce for certain nations. Japan and Italy will have a *very* hard time to get the economy to work because of lack of resources.

Will the AI counter your flanking moves?

The AI will react to them very quickly, and contain them. In a game as Japan, I tried to land in Shanghai to outflank the Chinese. A few weeks later I was desperately struggling to save my units as the landings had been surrounded by hordes of Chinese troops.

In the Grand Campaign will the USA AI launch EFFECTIVE amphibious landings in Europe? How good are they? Will Britain do the same? If the player is Germany, will these landings test him?

Yes. They are good. Again, this is something that is coded in the US and UK AI-files. At some point during the game, the Allies will switch from defensive to offensive AIs. Where exactly the landings will take place will be dependent on where you have your forces as Germany and what the AI believes is the best area to attack.

Since this game will rise and fall on how well the USSR AI holds up, just how good is the USSR in research, building units, deploying and fighting? How long does the USSR AI hold out against a human playing Germany?

Like I said, the USSR AI will switch focus over time. At first it will be building stuff, then going agressive, then defensive, then agressive. It is very hard to get as far as Germany did in 41 in HoI2 because of many new changes to the game engine. Supply is a critical factor that will directly influence combat ability. A German player who neglects to expand infrastructure in Germany and Poland will have a very very hard time inside Russia.

How well does the USA AI do against Japan? Are there naval clashes? Will both Japan and the USA take over islands? Are carriers effective in the game (ie do they actually work?) Will Japan expand in Asia? Does Britain/Australia counter these moves?

The naval system is completely reworked in HoI2. The entire naval scope of the game is amazing now, with combat ranges and positioning. Two carriers with proper screen will kill a fleet of 15 battleships now. The CVs will simply hover at 150-200 km range and bomb the battleships to bits. Changes has also been made to amphibious invasions. You cant be too far from the originating base to the landing zone without some severe penalties. That means that if you will need to secure a continuous line of bases from Pearl to Okinawa before you can even think about invading Japan. There will not be any invasion fleet leaving port at San Fransisco and invading Guadalcanal or something like that. As for the AI-questions, I think I have covered them already.

As a player have you been surprised by any AI moves and strategies?

Yes. Mostly I have been frustrated at how good it is to counter my clever flanking moves.

These are just a few questions off the top of my head that NO review to date has even hinted upon, and yet are things that every wargamer needs to know.

These questions are mainly aimed at the Grand Campaign. I haven't touched upon how good the individual scenarios may be.

Thanks for taking the time to answer [:)]

NP, keep em coming if you have more. [:)]

[RBWhite]

I'm like you Kung Karl, very open minded.

I don't limit my purchases to any one or two companies.

Most of what I buy is based on reviews in PC Gamer & Computer Gaming World. So far except for a few I've been pretty lucky.

Games like Battlefield Viet Nam, Metal of Honor etc, are not for me, just fancy versions of Doom & Wolffen. YUC.

I do love a good Fighter, chopper & Tank sim etc.

But even with a good review I wait 3 to 6 months before I purchase.

I got burnt by Take Two with the original Battle Cruiser, Derek Smart stayed with it, I own them all up Universal Combat, very complects and difficult to play, and he patches and improves it constantly and I'll buy the next edition when it is released.

We all know someday we will buy, The No Name Used Game, that we originaly didn't like and we will somewhat like it. I collect stamps also, most of the time I buy a stamp because I didn't have it. Thats a HOBBY.

Just Keep the Games Coming

Rick White

[dinsdale]

Looks like Lester has returned with screenname #3 for a one post and out appearance.
----------------

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
You should be very careful with what you are saying about losing customer faith. Witp is at 1.4 right now, and we still have land units retreating through enemy units and the leader bug is still alive and well. I remember what you said months ago about how multiple patches that dont fix the real bugs is a sign of something...do you remember what it was?

Very good point. There seems to be a disatisfaction with Paradox because they are not named 2By3. Incessant moaning about one, while ignoring the other is just bashing for bashing sake. WiTP rivalled HOI1 for it's release and patch policy, something forgotten by many here.

Well, I dont think too many of you guys realize it, but you have just witnessed the end of cwif.

I hope not, there's enough room for multiple games, it's not as though we're all swamped by the number of WW2 Grand Strategy games on the market is it [:D]

Haven't seen you in OT for a while.

[RBWhite]

I was going to make that same comment, but not having been around long enough I abstained.

[Warfare1]

Panzerjaeger Hortlund:

Many thanks for taking the time to answer those questions.

That does help fill in the blanks a bit.

Just a couple more questions:

1) You mention that the USA player will need to establish bases for supply, etc before he is able to advance on Japan. This does add a layer of complexity.

Is the AI, playing as the USA, able to handle all this extra complexity and be able to advance on the islands and Japan?

I should note that your description of the CV naval battles is encouraging.

2) Can the USSR hold out the entire game against a human playing Germany?

3) In the original HoI whenever you selected a group of units, a large panel appeared on the main map screen that listed these units, thus obstructing one's view of the game screen.

Has this been changed?

Thanks again.

[Pippin]

Well I will say this. Having TOO smart an AI is also a bad thing. For example, computers are so fast now that winning vs Chessmaster is just getting damn impossible. In the days of the NES it was ok to let the AI think for 3 hours each turn, it was still possible to win every time if you just thought through enough moves ahead but... no so any more.

If AI in wargames ever gets highly advanced in the next decade, it is a good thing for us that dice and fog of war are there to give us a back-door. Or us humans just will not have a chance.

Right now, it seems the main tactic of making an AI harder, as someone mentioned was just to increase modifiers. E.G. Panzer General, Civ III, etc. Sure, it makes the game harder, but we are still playing the same poor AI. It just is not that satisfying when you are doing a re-peat of the newbie levels with just modifiers changed against you.

[Koper]

Just a couple more questions:

1) You mention that the USA player will need to establish bases for supply, etc before he is able to advance on Japan. This does add a layer of complexity.

Is the AI, playing as the USA, able to handle all this extra complexity and be able to advance on the islands and Japan?

I should note that your description of the CV naval battles is encouraging.

Generally, it depends - of course main issue is if the JAP is controlled by AI or by human player. Difficulty setting also adds another parameter to that... Generally, USA industrial power (when it switches to the war production) is enough to give AI huge advantage over Japan and make invasions possible. Of course exact moment when USA will be able to swing the balance can't be pinpointed as 1942-1943, but it should be close to that...

Much more then in HoI1, playing harder difficulty levels is good way to make game challenging.

2) Can the USSR hold out the entire game against a human playing Germany?

Not against skilled human player on normal difficulty level (whole different story on V.Hard, though), although EVEN if you take over USSR, your losses in manpower are usually appaling - and securing territory takes a lot of additional MP to fight partisan resistance (that limits your logistic potential). Usually after Barbarossa, even on Normal level, Germany got to be very careful in using their units as MP is on very low levels...

3) In the original HoI whenever you selected a group of units, a large panel appeared on the main map screen that listed these units, thus obstructing one's view of the game screen.

Has this been changed?

Thanks again.

You mean tooltip? But it's here only if you point on the group, when you move your cursor elsewhere, it dissapears? I usually choose unit (tooltip pops-up), move cursor on the province I want to be attacked/occupied (tooltip dissapears), then click and choose proper order...

You can also order your units without pointing anything on the map, just by choosing unit, then selecting proper order in the menu located on the left side of the screen. In general, interface changes are what HoI2 reviewers got in mind when they mention "streamlined design". [;)]

[ravinhood]

It just is not that satisfying when you are doing a re-peat of the newbie levels with just modifiers changed against you.

Just do like I always do Pippin, start out playing on the "hardest" or next to hardest level, then the AI is fun to play against for awhile. I can't remember the last time I played a game on "easy" or "normal" settings. I already know it will be so dumbed down it will be too simple.

One of the best AI's I've played in quite awhile is the SPARTAN AI version 1.013, holy gawd almighty, it will swarm you and eliminate you in a matter of no time on its highest settings and even on "easy" people ran to the forum and whined how "hard" the easy level was. lol

I'd rather have an AI that beats me 10 to 1 vs an AI that never wins. There's no glory in beating a stupid AI. But, when the day comes the AI beats the pants off of us and they program a little humor and arrogance into it like it will say "Ha hah hah beat you again you silly human" or "they should enhance your programming human" that is the day I will enjoy computer AI's the most.

[Warfare1]

Koper:

Thanks for your kind replies.

Your replies, as well as those supplied by PH, have gone a long way to help fill in some missing info about HoI2.

It is encouraging.

What is the best thing you like about HoI2?

What is the worse thing you dislike about HoI2?

What would you still like to see changed in HoI2?

Are any patches for HoI2 currently in the works?

Thanks for taking the time, mate [:)]

[hurtzDonut]

I did not purchase the buggy original HOI, but like most gamers I will wait to see if this version lives up to the "glowing reviews", before I plunk down hard cash!

[elmo3]

Looks like we'll have to wait longer for those player reviews. The idiots at EBGames still don't have it on the shelf even though their website said it would ship on the 4th.