AAR - PBEM Game 2 (The FIRST public AAR)

[a19999577]

[X(] Ach du lieber!

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

...and i do mean final. if the documentation is correct Germany surrenders with the loss of both Eastern and Western Germany. if it's like JA it won't happen til pauluss99 opens his next turn file.

Due to some mix up i forgot to send RU the 80 supply i had intended. i swore i sent it, but it ended up in China, and a game reload still wouldn't let me transfer it to RU. (i will try and recreate it and submit it as a bug) So i hope the game is over as i did not get any supply to RU on THE turn of his reconstruction.

bottom line, Germany was impenetrable with the huge technology advantage they had, and when it was equalized (and i had a lot of production due to Japan's collapse) i was able to use my Navy to pick my battles. It did take me 2 years to gain the technology i needed though.

so paullus99, over to you, let me know if the game is indeed over...

The only problem is I don't see that the German militia mobilized to defend when you attacked. What happened, were they there and defeated? If not, is it because of the version you are using? There should have been 5 militia mobilized in West Germany.

[MButtazoni]

oh crap, i forgot about that new "feature". i never saw any militia show up in E or W Germany when i invaded.

i'm using 1.700 so they shouild have been there.

now i'm not sure what we should do...

(i do have the save just before the attack so we can get it to keith to see what's up)

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

oh crap, i forgot about that new "feature". i never saw any militia show up in E or W Germany when i invaded.

i'm using 1.700 so they shouild have been there.

now i'm not sure what we should do...

(i do have the save just before the attack so we can get it to keith to see what's up)

If it works when you do an attack in 1.801, don't bother sending a save on this game as it's already been fixed or altered so the save wouldn't help. At one point we were only getting double militia, then I thought it was fixed and we were back to x1. At this point, probably best to let that game go and move on to a new one. I think everyone learned a lot and several bugs were found. Good game.

[paullus99]

Well, it was good while it lasted. I knew the hammer was going to come down at some point (just though it would be a season or two later than it was)....

Lessons learned -

1) Always garrison your rear areas - Germany doesn't have any safe areas, so don't leave yourself open.

2) Early Japan Exit - if the Western Allies can concentrate on Germany alone, you're cooked.

3) Germany needs to maintain some kind of semi-viable fleet presence - I was waaay too aggressive with my fleet & subs this time around and didn't have anything to throw into the mix when it counted.

4) Research is vital - Germany needs to research up their land forces as soon as possible & keep the lead....otherwise you'll have no chance once the Americans come knocking.

Everything else I'm posting on the development board.

Again, great game everyone!!!

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: elmo3
Yet by 1944 they were easily outproducing the Germans and had no shortage of soldiers.

Wanted to point out that it is a myth that Soviets didn't have shortage of soldiers after the losses of 1941-42. In fact during the latter part of war their infantry formations were chronically understrength (inf coys of 30-60 men). Also their production base was smaller than Germany's, but was helped by better resource management and Lend Lease.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Keke

Wanted to point out that it is a myth that Soviets didn't have shortage of soldiers after the losses of 1941-42. In fact during the latter part of war their infantry formations were chronically understrength (inf coys of 30-60 men). Also their production base was smaller than Germany's, but was helped by better resource management and Lend Lease.

Well "shortage" is a pretty subjective term. I'll check some of my Glantz sources this weekend and see if he lists actual manpower numbers.

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: elmo3
Well "shortage" is a pretty subjective term. I'll check some of my Glantz sources this weekend and see if he lists actual manpower numbers.

For many it is quite suprising info that the actual average force ratio between Germans and Soviets throughout the second half of the war was only 2.7:1. You can find those figures in Glantz’s books from the mid nineties onwards.

[elmo3]

Some numbers that might be useful to WaW designers and to support the argument that the Soviets had no "shortage" of forces in the field:

Number of divisions available for these countries over the course of the war:
Country.......'39...'40...'41...'42...'43...'44...'45..End of War
France..........86..105.....0......0.....5......7....14.........14
Germany*....78..189..235..261.327.347..319........375
Great Britain..9....34....35....38...39....37....31.........31
Italy..............6....73....64....89...86.....2.......9.........10
Poland.........43......2......2.....2.....2.....5.......5...........5
Romania......11....28....33....31...33...32.....24.........24
USSR.........194..200..220..250..350.400...488.......491
USA**...........8....24....39....76....95...94.....94.........94
*towards the end of the war, many of these divisions were either incomplete or poorly equipped
**including both Army and Marine divisions and accounting for the Pacific theater

So even after the devastating losses of '41 and '42 the Soviets still fielded 350 divisions in '43. There is no * after their numbers like the Germans indicating their divisions were incomplete.

The source is the angelfire WWII statistics web site.

[elmo3]

Some more stats from that web site:

Mid-Year Manpower On The Eastern Front

Year...Soviet.........German
1941..5 million.....3.3 million
1942..5 million.....3.1 million
1943..6.2 million..2.9 million
1944..6.8 million..3.1 million

So again there was more manpower in mid 1943 in spite of previous Soviet losses.

Edited - typo

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Some more stats from that web site:

Mid-Year Manpower On The Eastern Front

Year...Soviet.........German
1941..5 million.....3.3 million
1942..5 million.....3.1 million
1943..6.2 million..2.9 million
1944..6.8 million..3.1 million

So again there was more manpower in mid 1943 in spite of previous Soviet losses.

Edited - typo

Don't worry, as long as the Germans can't hold the A-A line, the Russians have enough manpower in GGWaW. We have manpower number on armies in WWII and I feel good about our system and regions stats.

[JJKettunen]

The number of divisions tell you nothing since Soviet divisions were roughly half in size compared to German ones (after the summer of 41), and most of them were seriously understrength anyway. The manpower figure is much closer to the actual force ratio. The losses of '41 and '42 don't show up because of progressive mobilization, as was the case on the German side (don't show the losses at Stalingrad, FE).

Edit: Badd Enklish [:D]

[neuromancer]

Yep, I was kinda thinking that once the Japs were paved, the full might of the WA was going to land on Germany, and it wasn't going to be pretty!

[Oleg Mastruko]

I'd say that system is more or less OK.

Have in mind that we played quite unhistoric game here, pulling no punches and exchanging blows like crazy. Note that almost every turn of German advances was followed by similar Russian counter advances. I'd say we lost much more units than historically - ie. we lost less units than GE and RU did overall 41-45, but East Front in this game went on for a much shorter period of time (Fall 42 - Summer 44). So it was a very bloody fight where both sides neglected mayn other aspects (research and sometimes supply for RU, back areas security and naval matters for GE).

At the end both sides were severely depleted when WA's successful invasion finally decided the game (which is what I hoped for from the beginning - let's again recall memorable words of Komrade Stalin when he described victory over Nazism: "Britain bought time, America supplied money, and Russia gave blood"). Except for the British part in the story it was more or less like that in this game too [:D]

Oleg

[YohanTM2]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Keke

Wanted to point out that it is a myth that Soviets didn't have shortage of soldiers after the losses of 1941-42. In fact during the latter part of war their infantry formations were chronically understrength (inf coys of 30-60 men). Also their production base was smaller than Germany's, but was helped by better resource management and Lend Lease.

Well "shortage" is a pretty subjective term. I'll check some of my Glantz sources this weekend and see if he lists actual manpower numbers.

I have read that the Soviets were actually reducing there infantry formations to keep troops flowing into armor etc. They amount of actual new recruits from late '43 on was pretty light

[Badbonez]

Can we get a final decision? Allied victory? How about a final score screenie?

[MButtazoni]

Well both Germany and Japan have been conquered by the Allies. even the fat lady has finished up and left the building.

[Badbonez]

ORIGINAL: MButtazoni

Well both Germany and Japan have been conquered by the Allies. even the fat lady has finished up and left the building.

I'm guessing Allied decisive victory? [:)]

[dog]

I thought it was a fascinatinating game, and had alot of unusual twists and turns, as well as well thought out cause and effects through out.....It still leaves me with a bit of an uneasy feeling however, that sealion was successful, and the allies still won a fairly convincing victory in the end......My main concern is balance, even at the cost of historical accuracy......I mean, it is a game in the end, not a documentary..........enjoyed every page though, good work one and all![:D]