Ki-43-II availability

[Joel Billings]

I just read an account of 74 Ki-43 fighters flying from Buka/Shortlands to Henderson Field on January 25, 1943. Does anyone know if the Ki-43-I had that kind of range (at least 360 miles, we have it at only 240 miles extended range). If not, these must have been Ki-43-II in which case we need to speed up their arrival in the game. We show the -II's starting production in November 42. Let me know. Thanks.

Joel

[Warspite**]

My sources indicate that Ki-43-II started production in Nov of 1942. To be specific 5 prototypes were produced from Feb to May of 1942, and three trial service aircraft from June to August at the Nakajima Hikoki K.K.at Ota.
However, this same source lists the maximum range of Ki-43-Ia as being 745 miles. Strangely it does not specify the normal range, but does mention the original Army specification called for a range of 500 miles. The original prototype satified all specifications except for manoeuverability, so its safe to assume at least at that point it had a normal range of 500 miles. Of course it only had two 7.7 mm amchineguns at that time.

[ratster]

Yep, The "The Complete Encyclodepia of World Aircraft" lists it's max range as 746 miles also.

[Lex Morton]

Joel the answers are within these two great web pages http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/nakajima_ki43arm.htm
and this one http://www.danford.net/hayabusa.htm



Try and read them in that order and prepare for confusion! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> I think the first author is correct with his armaments/type theories and you can find more info at the second including info on the later type II varients etc.Ranges are given there too and your initial figures appear well out! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Just check out the transfer range on the IIb version for instance for a laugh....(Hint its 1990 MILES! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> )

Good Luck (and BANZAI!)

Lex Morton

[Dunedain]

Good job finding those stats, guys. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Joel: You might want to double check the ranges on all the aircraft to make sure
there aren't any typos in the numbers. One thing jap fighters tend to be known for
is their long range. 1990 miles? Wow, that's really far for a fighter! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Jason629]

1990 miles is one hell of an extended operating range. But then again, there are prices for such range and manueverability. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Joel Billings]

Is this 1990 the radius or the total distance travelled out and back? In the game that is 66 hexes. In the game the A6M2 has an extended range of 23 hexes and a transfer range of 71 hexes. Is the Oscar II's 66 hex max range equivalent to this 71 hex transfer range for the A6M2?

[Jason629]

I doubt that the Oscar could travel 3980 miles. I would suppose the 1990 miles is the total operating range...making the true number somewhere in the range of 995 miles. This would put it more in line with the A6M2.

[Marc]

Here is what I found:

My source is 'Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War' by René J Francillon

He states the following:

Production: A total of 5.919 Ki-43s were manufactured as follows:
Nakajima Hikoki K.K. at Ota:
3 Ki-43 prototypes (Dec 38 - Mar 39)
10 Ki-43 Service trials aircraft (Nov 39 - Sept 40)
716 Ki-43-I production aircraft (Apr 41 - Feb 43)
5 Ki-43-II prototypes (Feb-May 42)
3 Ki-43-II Service trials aircraft (June-Aug 1942)
2,492 Ki-43-II production aircraft (Nov 42-Oct 44)
10 Ki-43-IIIa prototypes (May 44-Aug 45)

Tachikawa Hikoki K.K. at Tachikawa:
2,629 Ki-43-II and Ki-43-IIIa production aircraft (May 43-Aug 45)
2 Ki-43-IIIb prototypes (spring 45)

Tachikawa Dai-Ichi Rikugun Kokushu at Tachikawa:
49 Ki-43-IIa production aircraft (Oct 42-Nov 43)

Concerning the ranges he writes:
Ki-43-Ia:
normal : -
maximum: 745 miles

Ki-43-IIb:
normal : 1095 miles
maximum: 1990 miles

Ki-43-IIIa:
normal : 1320 miles
maximum: 1990 miles

All Ki-43 aircraft could carry two 200 litre drop tanks.

The specification after which the Ki-43 was designed called for a range of 500 miles.

The text states that in the Ki-43-II 'a rudimentary form of selfsealing fuel tank was installed in the wings.' This could explain the longer range for the Ki-43-II. I don't know if the tank in the wing itself is new or only the selfsealing function but I would guess he means the tank.

Only for comparison:
A6M2 Model 21:
normal : 1,160 miles
maximum: 1,930 miles

A6M3 Model 32:
normal : -
maximum: 1,477 miles

A6M5 Model 52:
normal : -
maximum: 1,194 miles

The A6M2, A6M3 and A6M5 were all able to carry one 330 litre drop tank.

I'm not sure what's the answer to the range question. Make your own guess.

Marc

[Dunedain]

Joel:

There is no way that 1990 figure can be the combat radius, it must be the transfer
range. Which makes sense, because it is a little less than the transfer range of the
zero, which has incredible range.

It would be very helpful if someone could dig up what the standard combat radius
of the Ki-43 (both I and II versions) is and what the extended combat radius is (extended
radius would mean using fuel drop tanks for best combat radius, meaning no bombs
could be carried for ground attack).

So, if you wanted to send Ki-43's to bomb an enemy base, they would have to stick
to their standard combat radius. But for long range escort missions, they could take
external fuel drop tanks and go to their full extended combat radius. And for long
transfer flights, they could take external fuel drop tanks, plus fly at an optimum
cruising speed the whole way (no combat) for absolute maximum range.

[Dunedain]

Marc:

Thanks for the great post. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Seems we have the range info. we need. Although the
source doesn't quite break the ranges down into all categories we would like to see.

Some of these figures appear to be in total miles, not the combat radius.


Ki-43-Ia:
normal : -
maximum: 745 miles

The spec this plane was built for was to be able to 500 miles, then fight, then return,
correct? So that would mean the standard combat radius would likely be 500 miles
(the plane could carry bombs at this range). The 745 miles figure must then be the
extended combat radius (using fuel drop tanke for long range escort missions)?
Unfortunately the transfer range isn't listed here. But can be assumed to be about
double the extended combat radius, say, 1600 miles or so?


Ki-43-IIb:
normal : 1095 miles
maximum: 1990 miles

Here the 1095 would likely be the total standard combat range. For an
standard combat radius of 547 miles. The 1990 would seem to be the
transfer range. No extended combat range is given.


Ki-43-IIIa:
normal : 1320 miles
maximum: 1990 miles

This would seem to be like the above ranges, except maybe the 1320 is the total extended
combat range?

This is actually kind of confusing. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Does anyone know where we can find the breakdown of standard combat radius/extended
combat radius/transfer range of these planes? Because these sources seem to be a
little vague on what exactly they are referring to at times. There must be some
books that cover this plane's range specs in detail.

[ratster]

None of the sources I've refferenced indicate the range for the KI-43-1a as anything but "maximum".

Now for some empirical data. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

The Japanese operated the Ki-43-1a from Kota Baharu (64th Sentai) and used it to attack Rangoon on Dec 25th, 1941. Thats roughly 800 miles, one way. All models could carry two 45 gallon drop tanks, which could account for the extended range. Its also possible they were repositioned to Bangkok for this raid, or landed and refueled there.

Anyway this would lead me to believe the 745 mile range figure is possibly reffering to operational range.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: ratster ]</p>

[Dunedain]

I just had a thought about these aircraft range figures. When we look at these
range numbers, let's forget about transfer ranges for a minute. These figures might
all be strictly combat range numbers. In which case, it all starts to make a lot
more sense.

The number given for the Ki-43-Ia is in combat radius miles, that's how far the plane
could go to the target area, engage in combat, then return. 745 miles would be the
maximum combat radius of the plane using fuel drop tanks. If the fuel drop tanks
are mounted only on the wings and there is still a centerline mount under the
fuselage for a bomb, then a bomb could be carried on such a long range mission.
The standard combat radius of the Ki-43-Ia can be assumed to be the same as the
Ki-43-IIb, unless we find a precise figure that says otherwise, since the
Ki-43-Ia was built to meet that 500 mile combat radius spec.

Now all we have to do is go down the rest of the list of aircraft ranges that
Marc posted and divide them all in half to get the standard and maximum combat radii
for the aircraft. The difference between standard and maximum ranges, for purposes
of the game, is that if you send your fighters on a mission that is within
the standard combat radius of that type of fighter, then they can carry bombs
for ground attack. If you send the fighter to a far away target, then you will
likely lose any ability of the fighter to carry bombs, unless the fighter has
mounting points for both bombs and fuel drop tanks. Some do, some don't.

This leaves us with only the question of what the transfer ranges of the planes are.
Joel might have provided a hint at the answer already. He said the transfer
range of the zero was 71 hexes. If we can't find exact figures for transfer ranges
in a book about the Ki-43, then maybe we can extrapolate the information from
the zero's transfer range. 71 hexes equals 2130 miles. Figure out how much
of a percentage that is more than the zero's maximum combat range in total miles.
Then add add the same percentage increase in miles to the other planes' maximum
combat ranges, and you now have their transfer ranges. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> And the results
should be quite accurate overall, if not perfect. It beats wild guessing if
we can't find a source that spells out the transfer ranges of the various Ki-43 models.

The transfer ranges would have to be higher than the maximum combat ranges, because
during a transfer there is no combat at all, just flying at optimum cruise speed
for maximum range to get to a far away base.

And ratster's great info. about that attack backs up the maximum combat radius
figure for the Ki-43-Ia. It may even be able to pull off 800 miles one way,
fight, then return. In fact, if Rangoon is that far away from the base, then
it's a known fact that the Ki-43-Ia has a maximum combat radius of 800 miles.
Can't argue with actual combat performance. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Supervisor]

The following information on the Oscar is provided from the Australian Official history, which has an appendix in Vol I (Royal Australian Airforce 1939-1942) with all the data tabulated for all the aircraft flown in the theater Data on range only shown:

Oscar 1 (Ki 43 I): Still Air Range 775 Miles or 1200 miles with maximum fuel from the drop tanks.

Oscar 2 (Ki 43 II): Still Air Range 1885 Miles as a fighter only. If loaded with a 440 lb bomb range dropped to 1125 miles

Oscar 3 (Ki 43 III): Still Air range as a fighter bomber (with a 440 lb bomb) 1305 miles. Range with maximum fuel and no bombs: 1995 miles.

Hope this helps

[Kadste]

More food for thought,

Ki-43Ia
Normal range of 550-620 miles
Internal fuel 104.5 US gal (87 imp gal)
Maximum range 745 miles (most sources state 745)
Two 10.5 US gal (8.8 imp gal) drop tanks
Max economical cruise speed 199 mph, endurance approximately 4 hrs

Ki-43IIa
Normal range of 1006-1095 miles
Internal fuel 148 US gal (123 imp gal)
Extended range 1865-1990 miles
Two 54 US gal drop tanks (45 imp gal) drop tanks
Max economical cruise speed 214 mph, endurance approximately 7.5 hr.


Combat radius for Ki-43
Ki-43Ia: 297 miles
Ki-43Ia with drop tanks: 431 miles
Ki-43IIa: 448 miles
Ki-43IIa with drop tanks: 635 miles


We must really find out what the combat radius is. Range is one thing and in some cases is most impressive, but you must expend fuel to fly to the target, possibly expend lots (3-4 times that of cruising) of fuel for 5-10 minutes of combat, expend fuel to fly home, plus a reserve of about 10-15%, just in case. Add bombs or drop tanks to a fighter and in this fully loaded condition you just lost another 25% of your range.

A good rule of thumb you will see in use is that the combat radius is about one-third of the maximum range. Maximum range for some aircraft includes drop tanks, while with others it does not. This is important because drop tanks were not always available.

By the way, ratster, the Ki-43&#8217;s of the 64th Sentai flew from Kota Bharu, Malaya to Don Muang, Thailand (near Bangkok) and were staged from Don Muang for the 25th raid. From Don Muang to Rangoon is a distance of approximately 385 miles. Flying from Don Muang to Rangoon with two drop tanks would give the Ki-43Ia about 15 minutes &#8220;playing time&#8221; over Rangoon until they had to go home.


Most of this information comes from "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War", "Famous Fighters of the Second World War-2" "Bloody Shambles", "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" and some other research notes that I have been collecting over the years.

[Dunedain]

Michael:

Thanks for the excellent information. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

These numbers seem to match up very well with what Marc posted. The figures you
give seem to be in total miles combat range, not the combat radius, or else we'd
have fighter flying 4,000 mile combat missions, and I don't think even Jap fighters
can do that? Or can they? Hmm. What is the maximum combat radius of a P-51 Mustang?
The P-51 has superb range. Maybe if it can fly 1,900 miles with fuel drop tanks,
fight, then return to base, so can the later Oscar versions.

Anyone have any reliable figures on the combat radius of a P-51 using fuel drop tanks?

The figures for the Ki-43-I are much lower. So perhaps it had a significantly
shorter range than the Ki-43-II and III.

It's important to note that the Australian History documents that Michael posted
specify that for the planes to reach their maximum combat range they can't carry
any bombs, just fuel drop tanks. So in UV in order for your fighters to reach their
full maximum combat radius, they will have to go without bombs. Which means
they will be restricted to air-to-air combat or strafing of ground or naval targets
at those extended ranges, no bombing.

All we have to do now is figure out if the figures Michael posted are for total
combat range, or the combat radius.

My guess is that the ranges Michael listed from this official source are in
total combat miles, and we will have to divide them in half to get the actual
combat radius for each plane type.

Ratster pointed out that Ki-43-I's attacked Rangoon and had to fly about 800 miles
one way to get there. Did the Ki-43-I's carry bombs on that mission or just
strafe with their guns? Michael lists 1200 miles as the max combat range with
fuel drop tanks for the Ki-43-I. If we divide that in half, that gives us 600 miles
as the maximum combat radius of the Ki-43-I, if it uses fuel drop tanks. Is that
maybe just enough to reach Rangoon from that base in the attack that ratster
posted about? Ratster, can you double check that 800 miles figure you posted?
Maybe it was more like 600 miles?

As far as the transfer ranges of these planes, we still haven't found a source
that lists them specifically. So we can just use the method I mentioned in my
last post to get a figure for that, by using the transfer range of the zero
as model for the other planes.

[Dunedain]

Thanks for the info., Marine X853. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> This helps a lot.

So, the Rangoon numbers were wrong, it wasn't 800 miles one way. It was more
like 800 miles *both* ways. Now everything starts to make more sense.

Marine X853: Do you have combat radius numbers for the Ki-43-III?

If your combat radius numbers for the Ki-43-I and Ki-43-II are correct, then the
maximum range figures listed by Michael from the Australian documents might be
the transfer ranges, *not* the maximum combat ranges. Since the Australian
maximum range numbers are much farther than what your combat radius figures indicate.

I think we are getting close to some answers here. Please post any other facts
that will help clarify the situation further.

[ratster]

Hehehe, Actually its closer to 850 miles from Kota Baharu to Rangoon. However they were escorting other bombers for this mission, so probably would only have been carrying drop tanks.

The other possibilty is (as I mentioned before) they refuelled at Bangkok (about 350 miles from Rangoon), or even staged from there for this raid. The squadron in question (64th Sentai) however was based at Kota Baharu, from which they had launched an attack on Kuala Lumpur 3 days earlier (22 Dec,1941). I can't say with any certainty how likely it is they would have staged from Bangkok, not being that familiar with the details of Japanese air op procedures in WWII.

Most of the information I'm geting is from online sources. Unfortunately all the printed source material uses the term "maximum" range without defining it, which is why I started looking at missions flown by squadrons using the Ki-43-1a.

It does seem likely that the 745 mile figure for the 1a model is for standard operational range, given all the data presented so far. In addition all models could carry 2 45 gallon drop tanks, which I would guess would add another 100-150 miles of operational range (200-300 total), at the very most. The mileage on WWII era aircraft engines wasn't that impressive, compared to today.

So I would say 24 hexes carrying bombs, and say 30 without(as a fighter only), for the Ia model. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

edit: DoH! lol, Glad thats cleared up , wasn't sure about the rebasing, didnt read your post before I posted, too busy writing all this up. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: ratster ]</p>

[Kadste]

Dunedain,

Definitive information on the Ki-43III is hard to find. Only 12 were ever built, with two different engines by two different manufacturers.

It appears that the &#8220;A&#8221; model was an evolution of the last II models, specifically the KAI&#8217;s. Bigger engine (the Sakae Ha.115-II versus the Sakae 115) was really the only difference. This resulted in an increase in speed (from 320 mph to 354 mph),and faster climbing (climb to 16,400 5 min, 19 sec. versus climb to 16,400 of 5 min 49 sec.)aircraft. Still using two 12.7mm MG&#8217;s. Reportedly the ranges were similar two the II model, maybe with increased internal fuel. There were 10 prototypes built. Some sources says this model went into production in 1945, but I have not seen any numbers on production aircraft being delivered.


The other model, the &#8220;B&#8221; model, had a slightly bigger enginethan the A, but also had two decent 20mm cannons. There are reports that extensive modifications were made to the fuselage, wing structures, and the exhaust system. The range for this model was reportedly a lot less than the II&#8217;s., in the neighborhood of 580 miles or 700 with drop tanks. I really have not seen information at this time as to the nature of these changes and why the drastic reduction in range numbers. Maybe it is because they finally put in some armor and real self-sealing fuel tanks. Two prototypes were built so it is really hard to determine anything concrete on this model.

[Kadste]

You have got to like the P-51D, just for the range.

269 US gallons internally, two 110 US gallon drop tanks (489 gallons total), ONLY consuming a gallon a minute (check out some Japanese planes, especially the Zero's at the start of the war), this bird can stay up for over 8 hours!

Radius of Action
Internal Fuel: 700 miles
With Drop tanks: 1040 miles