The WitP Player's Creed

[mogami]

Hi, And where were these unsupported German tanks in France 1940?
Germany lost several hundred tanks in a running battle where 7 Panzer divisons took on 2 French Tank disisons a motorized division and at least 6 Infantry divisions.
1 French Tank division ran out of gas before the battle began and the other was caught still loaded on rail flat cars. The Panzers had mech and motorized troops in support. and Stukas and while the French lost the battle they gave more then a few German units a rough time. All this while commiting the units piecmeal and in a most ineffective manner.

The French infantry did a fine job fighting supported tanks and this discussion was about unsupported tanks versus infantry.

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Is this the start of a cult or a rant? [:D]

I would avoid the Cool Aid!

You forgot "Thou shalt not invade or attack without preperation lest thee be smited"

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"
ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On that same subject, I'm actually looking in to buying a Brown Bess. Im weighing it or the 1861 Springfield rifled musket.
"


Just for show, or are you joining the BAR or NSSA?

Maybe if I actually go through with buying one of these... course then I'd actually have to learn how to hit something first.

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Great, can't drink, cant watch people screwing on tape but you can have any type of firearm your maniachal heart desires. God bless america.

[:D]

[mlees]

My coworker owns a black powder replica colt pistol. He says that after firing a round, you gotta wait a minute for the smoke cloud to disperse before you can see if you hit the target.[:)]

Great, can't drink, cant watch people screwing on tape but you can have any type of firearm your maniachal heart desires. God bless america.

There is a frustrating inconsistancy here, as you point out. Old enough to kill for your country, but not old enough to get a beer. This comes from trying to decide on a hard number that defines when an individual becomes an adult, which is, in reality, is different for everybody. (I have neighbors in their 30's that still act like rebellious teenagers without a clue.)

I figure that, at a certain age (18 or 21, take your pick, I'm 40 so it don't matter to me) we should assume that person is capable of making their own decisions, until they prove through their own actions that they can't be trusted. This goes from helmet laws down to owning guns. (If TankerAce wants to own a black powder gun, fine by me, unless he has a violent record.) The U.S. is turning into too much of a nanny state as it is... IMO.[:)]

[Wolfie1]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"
ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On that same subject, I'm actually looking in to buying a Brown Bess. Im weighing it or the 1861 Springfield rifled musket.
"


Just for show, or are you joining the BAR or NSSA?

Maybe if I actually go through with buying one of these... course then I'd actually have to learn how to hit something first.

You should have no problem finding a replica through re-enactment groups, (if you want an original thats a bit different). I'm in the UK and have a legally held fully functional replica Baker Rifle.

[Andy Mac]

No its not buggered what I have found is that if a reinfcing unit that should arrive with Blenheims arrives at a time when there are not enough blenheims in the pool it arrives with Wellingtons.

As the Wellington is in the pool and is a viable aircraft in the chain it will automatically upgrade the same way as some Dutch bomber gps will upgrade to hudsons after disbandment when they return before July 42.

It all depends on your pools.

Andy

[tanksone]

Please dont take this as piling on, but dang the Chinese officer corps really can suxs at times. Throw experiance and morale...nice recipe for trouble against good troops

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Wolfie1

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"
ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On that same subject, I'm actually looking in to buying a Brown Bess. Im weighing it or the 1861 Springfield rifled musket.
"


Just for show, or are you joining the BAR or NSSA?

Maybe if I actually go through with buying one of these... course then I'd actually have to learn how to hit something first.

You should have no problem finding a replica through re-enactment groups, (if you want an original thats a bit different). I'm in the UK and have a legally held fully functional replica Baker Rifle.

www.militaryheritage.com sells replica Brown Besses, Baker Rifles, Prussian and French muskets, and the whole lot. Originals are too pricey, but a 500 dollar replica is cool.

[mogami]

Hi, "You'll shoot your eye out"[X(]

[Hortlund]

1)
I will not complain when my infantry retreats through the attacking enemy forces and escape encirclment and death. Because each hex is 60 miles wide, and despite there being 100 000 japanese troops in that one hex, they cannot be everywhere at once, especially not at night.

2)
I will not kill my sub captains for not attacking the enemy when I have put allied sub doctrin on. To experience 3 allied sub attacks in the first 6 months of the war is quite reasonable.

3)
I will not whine when my bombardment taskforce stops in the middle of a speed run to the target to refuel a destroyer who only has 50% fuel left. The refueling of said destroyer is much more important than the survival of the bombardment taskforce, who instead of approaching the target at night, bombarding it at night, and retreating at night, decides to hover 2 hexes from Rabaul because of said destroyer refueling. To face 80 Betties in broad daylight builds character.

4)
I will not made snide comments on the forum about anti-submarine warfare and how odd it is to determine how good a ship is not by the quality of sonar or hydrophones, but by the number of depth charges it carried.

5)
I will not court martial my artillery officers. The fact that they cannot ever shoot at japanese troops until after the japanese troops has made their deliberate or shock attack is not the fault of them. Instead one must remember that each hex is 60 miles wide, and my artillery troops have probably dug their shelters on one side of the hex, while they keep their guns on the other side of the hex. That is why they can never fire in time. The clever japanese on the other hand, must have the shelters right next to the guns, because they always fire first.

6)
I will not mention the twighlight zone terrain, where your units pay the terrain cost of the hex they left instead of the hex they are moving into. Thus a unit will move from hex A to B in 3 days, but if it wants to go back from A to B it will take 3 weeks. I must remember that each hex is 60 miles across.

7)
Speaking of that, I will not complain when a badly depleted batallion with only 6 squads block the retreat path for a division. Here is the odd exception to the rule mentioned first. Even though each hex is 60 miles across, 60 guys should have no problem to capture 22 000 soldiers. After all, they were in the hex first, and the 22 000 soldiers probably surrendered because they heard a rumor that they were surrounded. Which they were...by 60 guys, despite the fact that the hex is 60 miles across. But I guess one soldier per mile is enough sometimes, if they are backed up by a vicious rumor.

Oh...do you want a save of that mogami?

[ChezDaJez]

Mogami, my comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek however...

Meanwhile, on 13 May 1940, the main German attack by Army Group A (forty-four divisions) began to the south. Seven Panzer divisions with ample air support struck at the relatively weak French 9th and 2nd armies in the Ardennes forest, reaching and crossing the Meuse river and then breaking out to the west within a matter of days.

It was at this point, as Gamelin and his subordinates sought to respond to this unexpected drive, that the weakness of the Allied air forces and the slowness and confusion of the command and control system of the ground forces made itself felt. Efforts during 13th-16th May to move three French armoured divisions held in reserve into a position to attack the German flanks collapsed in a muddle of air attacks, conflicting order and inadequate logistical arrangements. The panzers raced on, and by 20th May had reached the sea.

The only hope for the Allied forces was to lunch a major counter-stroke by forces north and south of the German corridor against the exposed flanks of the GErman line of advance before slower German forces could move up to consolidate the gains made. Though an obvious move in theory, and ordered on several occasions in the third and fourth weeks of May, it proved impossible for the Allied commanders to organise effectivley. German command of the skies in combination with the lack of combined arms in the remaining British and French tank formations, along with a crisis of morale in the French High Command (which the replacement of Gamelin by General Maxime Weygand did little to counteract), meant the Allied counterattacks were weak and unco-ordinated. Though they caused momentary alarm to the German Hish Command, hastily mounted attacks by the newly formed French 4th armoured division and then by a British tank brigade at Arras in the fourth week of May, achieved initial success but foundered for want of sufficient infantry and artillery support. With Army Group B continuing to advance and Belgian resistance collapsing, all subsquent efforts to mount a co-ordinated offensive from north and south foundered.

This is quoted from one of my WWII history encyclopedias.

Basically, the German spearhead was composed of Panzer divisions tearing large holes in the French lines WITHOUT benefit of close infantry support. They did enjoy overwhelming tactical air support. This allowed them to race into the rear areas creating extereme confusion and havoc. Infantry then entered and consolidated these gains.

The French believed armor was best used in support of the infantry and had scattered most of their armored forces trying to defend all avenues of attack. The Germans believed infantry was best used to consolidate the gains achieved by their armor. Their armor typically was free to move forward and engage enemy forces without being tied down by infantry.

French tanks, one on one, were superior to the German Panzer MkIs and IIs but the Germans nullified this advantage by employing superior tactics. German armor also greatly benefited from having radios onboard allowing them to fight effectively in large groups. The French tanks lacked radios and couldn't be effectively coordinated in battle.

You will note that the Allied counter attacks failed due to a lack of infantry support. The German armor attacks succeeded without close infantry support thanks to their air power.

Chez

[Toast]

If I remember correctly, the 1940 Panzer Divisions had two motorized infantry regiments (I think turcks were the main for of tansportation for these troops, not very many halftracks in 1940) to one Panzer Brigade. The original success of the blitzkreig was the use of combined arms tanks, infantry and artillery (in the form of dive bombers for mobility originally). The Allies either dispersed the tanks among the infantry or had them operate in tank brigades without infantry support. The failure of the British forces in the North African Desert, at least tactically was because of their failure to use combined arms, supporting tanks with infantry and artillery.

[MikeH1952]

If you examine the TOE of a 1940 German Panzer Div you wil find
1 Shutzen brigade (Artilery plus engineers and 3 Motorised Infantry battalions (lorried infantry plus A/T guns.

German tanks rarely if ever operated without integrated infantry support.

IIRC only the Russions and British operated tank units without organic infantry components. And they soon learnt better!

[Onime No Kyo]

This is all good and well, but I will still go with the ranter and ask how any of this explains how 100 tanks cant shoot the lights out of the inf. pickets and outposts before being driven back by the main body.

[MikeH1952]

I agree, it's the one sided nature of the Land Combat model. Probably would have been the same in an Infantry vs Infantry battle!

[Wolfie1]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, "You'll shoot your eye out"[X(]

I don't know about that, but I'm used to getting powder burns around my eyes[;)]

[mogami]

Hi, 266 Soviet tanks ordered to attack. Japanese Rgt
July 3 1939

"Zhukov accepted the risk of sending armor unsupported by infantry against the Japanese soldiers because his own infantry formations still had not appeapred at the front, and he believed that to await their arrival would squander an opportunity to destroy the Japanese.

The unsupported Soviet tanks and armored cars rolled forward and did blunt the Japanese offensive. The cost, however, to both sides was high. Japanese troops destroyed at least 120 Soviet tanks or armored cars with Molotov cocktails, 37-mm antitank guns, and antitank mines. The Japanese, in turn, lost several hundred troops killed or wounded"

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 266 Soviet tanks ordered to attack. Japanese Rgt
July 3 1939

"Zhukov accepted the risk of sending armor unsupported by infantry against the Japanese soldiers because his own infantry formations still had not appeapred at the front, and he believed that to await their arrival would squander an opportunity to destroy the Japanese.

The unsupported Soviet tanks and armored cars rolled forward and did blunt the Japanese offensive. The cost, however, to both sides was high. Japanese troops destroyed at least 120 Soviet tanks or armored cars with Molotov cocktails, 37-mm antitank guns, and antitank mines. The Japanese, in turn, lost several hundred troops killed or wounded"

That report is the kind of thing that I've been remembering, however, I don't believe that you could ever duplicate that result in ground combat in WitP. I believe that the problem is the nature of the "multipliers" that the game engine uses - at some point the game can multiply one side's attack strength by zero, or round it down to zero, so that a unit ends up not firing. This contributes to the reason why there are no real battles of attrition in WitP - the side that is bigger/stronger doesn't get punished once the smaller/weaker side goes below some threshold.

Oh well, I guess we are stuck with it.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[tonyingesson]

Once, during a bombardment run against an Allied base (I think it was Noumea), an Allied PT sunk one of my destroyers with 1 (!) hit by a 0.5 cal MG. Now, if a ship was ever smitten, that must be it...

[X(]