The amount of Soviet Spuads

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:41 pm

Originally posted by Martinov:
a phenomenally expensive, wasteful, anti-missile program (as if terrorists are going to fire missiles!)

Now why did you have to add that to the list? You were goin' so good there in your US-bashing mode, and then this.

We're not concerned of "terrorists" getting their hands on an ICBM (although getting or building a nuclear warhead does worry people), its the rogue countries like Iran, Iraq, N. Korea that we're afraid of. All three countries are working on long range missiles. Some lunatic like Saddamm may give an order no rational person would ever give.

Martinov · Post by **Martinov** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:21 pm

Ed

You shouldn't worry!

It'd be too risky for Saddam to nuke the US, (then you'd HAVE to get rid of him) - he'll choose an out of the way, expendable,low security outpost of western evil like Perth, Australia to prove his point. (come to think of it, if the shield is ever built, he'll have to do that!)

++++WE COMMEND OURSELVES TO ALMIGHTY GOD+++++

Arnaud · Post by **Arnaud** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:23 am

Hmmm...in WIR a squad's loss, in reality, means the loss of about 30-50 men. Let's say 50. (look at the TOE of a normal div and divide by the number of squads, you'll get a good estimate).

So, a loss of 48.000 squads means the loss of about 2.4 million men. Quite historical...

The Soviet Union has huge infantry reinforcements in 1941 because it is mobilizing. Germany has already mobilized.

In WIR 3.0, Infantry Reinforcements are equal to total population multiplied by:

Axis Soviet
1941 2 8 (mobilization)
1942 2 4
1943 2.5 4
1944 2.5 4
1945 2 3

The Soviet multiplier is higher because WIR underestimates Soviet
population by a factor of approximately 2, and because Germany has other
fronts to feed as well.

Arnaud
(WIR programmer)

Originally posted by RickyB:

Originally posted by Optha:
Ive played the 41 campain from 6/22/41 till 9/21/41. The Soviet lose about 48.000 Spuads, most by surrenderd forces, some by shattering and a few in combat. When i checked the reservepool of the Soviets the AI have more than 28.000 Spuads there. A little surprised ive take a look on his forces, and even near all Division have more than 240 Spuads, only a couple are fresh bild with about 180-210.
Allover, i guess 50% of the losed and the Troops in the pool are 52.000 Spuads he gets in 13 weeks..
4.000 Spuads á 50 men means 200.000 men per week, 10,4 Mio per Year, an so on....

A cheat or a bug?

PS: I am looking for an PBEM-Opponent

Actually, the numbers you show sound very realistic to me, although I doubt anyone including the Soviets knew how many men actually got called up, with so many being called up on the fly. The Soviets went through at least 25-30 million soldiers total during the war, so a rate of 10 million a year at first is probably right. The replacements drop off quite a bit in the game after the first year, so this rate does not continue, and the reserve pool does not go over 30,000 - any extra are lost forever.

The next release will have a lower replacement rate so the pool will not grow as large as fast.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:23 am

Wow Martianov your Communist Liberal thinking is showing. If you can compare the US to Stalinist Russia you must be blind or have no idea of the atrocities committed by them. Prison camps???? You mean the people who rape 12 year olds murder and rape sell drugs rob steal and then get pardoned and death sentence commuted by the Head Liberal himself, you think those people should be free? Those prison camps? Surely you don't compare sitting around watching TV playing cards and getting an education to the Gulags? Where the chance of surviving is less then getting struck by lightning. Where people were systemically destroyed through slave labor on trumped up charges of thinking for ones self. I think we should have not helped Russia period allowed the Germans and Russians to kill each other off then finish it all once and for all.

And I will not even go into the vote thing, that conversation does not fit this BBS.

Saved the world? I don't think so they defeated German ground forces (with major assistance no matter how you look at it) and raped China and Mongolia. Stole the freedom from Poles and the Baltic states where they killed thousands and made the other few million work on Collective farming where the farmers starved to death by the millions to feed the rest of the country now that system is great right. I think your ideas of history are incorrect and people like you are dangerous to history for you and the Liberal thinking people would have us forget it right. Well no I think we should remember it all including Slavery Death Camps etc etc etc. The US has many dark spots and blemishes but it is still the best major government system the world has ever known. And unless it is destroyed by Socialist ideas from within will most likely be around for few more centuries.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:19 am

Originally posted by tsbond:
The US has many dark spots and blemishes but it is still the best major government system the world has ever known. And unless it is destroyed by Socialist ideas from within will most likely be around for few more centuries.

The best major government? Be careful here. We're not the only democracy, and some of the others may arguably work just as well. We could even benefit from borrowing the ideas of others.

The last election process is a good example of something that would make us a better country if we changed it.

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:34 am

Thanks Arnold,

you have allready wrote in the update manual for v3.0, that you have removed the cheat multiplayer of 2 for squad-replacements for the AI. Now the soviets are not able to bild up theire Divisions to max stengh in early 41.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 2:16 pm

'The best major government?'

Not really, not even close. One of the biggest flaws in your system is the constitution and how it is so holy that it can't be changed even to fix laws that really need fixing. !cough! election !cough!

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:01 pm

Originally posted by tsbond:
Wow Martianov your Communist Liberal thinking is showing.

OK, I do not want to be mixed up in any political debate, but lets care about semantics, shall we?

Communist Liberal is a contradiction in terms. A Liberal indicates a person who belives in political and economic freedom (Liberal is derived from the latin word for freedom). Some modern western liberals tend to be more symphatetic to state-run wellfare systems than conservatives, but some are considerably LESS prone to accept state responsability for basic welfare than even most conservatives. ALL of them deplore the complete elimination of all political and economic liberty associated with communism.

So, you could perhaps have a Liberal Communist (i.e., a communist leaning towards market reforms, like Gorbachov), but there is no such thing as a Communist Liberal.

This comes from a staunch conservative, by the way. In fact, I'm so conservative on some issues most of my friends consider it scary.

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:27 pm

TSbond:
Not only Martinov does think this way but many Western Europeans, including me, too.
The US made lots of mistakes (as any other country on the world) but no other country is as proud although the US made such mistakes.
The people enclosed in camps:
Have you ever thought about the Indians living in their reservations?

The systematical destruction of persons was used in the US, too. Take the concentration camps for US citizens of Asiatic origins on the US Westcoast while WW2, the reservations for the original inhabitants of your country, the nice plantations in the Southern US, where your ancestors lived good on the costs of the Africans they transported there while any other civiliced nation on the world had forbidden slavery.
Or do you mean that apartheid, a system that gives different rights to persons of different habitus was really so great? Isn´t it destruction of a people if you don´t give them the same education, payment,etc than every other person ? Isn´t your Army still using the same method of getting rid of nationgroups they don´t like? Who were the men who had to fight in Vietnam or Iraq? Were there 80% Whites and 20% others? Or weren´t sent Divisions with a very high percantage of Afroamericans and Cheyenne (?).
Think about it!

The presidental election system in the US is absolutely undemocratic. When a candidate wins some states with 1 vote majority and looses some others with 30% and is then the elected president although the absolute number of votes shows the opponent in front, the system does simply not work.

Frank

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited February 27, 2001).]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:51 pm

Originally posted by Frank:
The US made lots of mistakes (as any other country on the world) but no other country is as proud because of that mistakes than the US.

Maybe you should ask an American who grew up in the US about this theory of yours before firmly planting your foot in your mouth. I've lived here 35 years, and have **NEVER** met or heard of an American who is proud of the "Trail of Tears", or other such disgraceful acts committed in the name of "Manifest Destiny". There's plenty enough evidence to be used as ammunition in your America-bashing crusade without fabricating more.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:47 pm

Originally posted by Frank:
TSbond:
...
The people enclosed in camps:
Have you ever thought about the Indians living in their reservations?

The systematical destruction of persons was used in the US, too. Take the concentration camps for US citizens of Asiatic origins on the US Westcoast while WW2, the reservations for the original inhabitants of your country, the nice plantations in the Southern US, where your ancestors lived good on the costs of the Africans they transported there while any other civiliced nation on the world had forbidden slavery.
...
Frank

Frank,
Some of your points are right on, but I don't know of anyone today proud about how the Americans of Japanese background were treated, and many other issues you raise. It was terrible and most Americans agree, although like any country there are going to be people who have their own thoughts.

More Americans died in our Civil War, fought in part to end slavery, than every other war we have been in combined. Having many whites fight and die(not all who fought and died but many)to end slavery, especially when so many didn't consider blacks their equal or were even affected by their status, should say something. The English wanted their cotton so badly that there was a chance of them entering the war on the slavery side, and they did not eliminate slavery too much before the US, so what does that say? The French also considered backing the south. Most of us are not proud of slavery, but I and many others are proud of Lincoln and all the men that died to get freedom for the slaves.

Anyway, enough politics for me - I have no desire to wave my country in anyone's face, as we have our blemishes like everyone else.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by RickyB (edited February 26, 2001).]

Grisha · Post by **Grisha** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:22 am

tsbond,

I'm shocked that you consider Stalin worse than Hitler. All I can say is Stalin lived to an old age, able to enact many of his terrible policies. It resulted in much loss of life in the Soviet Union. All this is true. Now, consider if Hitler had won WWII. His was a regime bent on a precise, focused policy of world genetic cleansing. If Hitler had lived with control of EuroAsia, it would have been the death not only of all Jews, but Slavs, and Africans, to say the least. I'm very thankful that the Soviets contributed the lionshare to defeating Germany, even if it meant that Stalin remained in power. The only alternative would have been something that not even Stalin would aspire to.

------------------
Best regards,
Greg Leon Guerrero

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:54 am

Martinov I wanted to apologize for the personal remark about liberal thinking it was out of line.

Of course my feelings on Stalin still stand

.

[This message has been edited by tsbond (edited February 26, 2001).]

mmarquo · Post by **mmarquo** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:27 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsbond:
"I think we should have not helped Russia period allowed the Germans and Russians to kill each other off then finish it all once and for all."

I agree with all of your points except the above...from a larger military point of view the Germans were finished after Stalingrad...and some even argue as early as Smolensk...the historical timeline shows that Germany was in dire straits before the US was involved at all in a significant military manner...some even argue that the Cold War started when Operation Uranus began...despite all his pleas and begging for more Western help, Stalin had secretly amassed a military might able to defeat the Hiltler's darling 6th Army (With the Sixth Army I could storm the heavens...)...and in so doing forever lost the trust of the West as he was not as down as things appeared and as he claimed...and the Germans were obviously not as militarily adept or aware as folklore would have it...

Clearly by early 1943 Germany was going to lose the war with or without US intervention, just a matter of time and more nonUS lives; perhaps even the German people themselves and the General Staff (if you can believe the postwar interviews, etc.) would have risen and changed things...if the US Army had not been fielded in Europe the extent of Russian penetration into Germany would have been much deeper...they may gotten the whole country...anyway, the nazi pig was crushed by an alliance of many different peoples from all over the world...
and for one country or another to try to establish bragging rights seems very trite.

Cheers

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:38 am

I have to make one point here on this qoute sorry I don't know how to do the qoute thing

"where your ancestors lived good on the costs of the Africans they transported there while any other civiliced nation on the world had forbidden slavery."

While this was a bleak time in US history please consider the fact that the Civil Nations you speak of are the very ones who rounded up the Africans and sent them to the US at a large profit. Although the US must hold most of the blame for Slavery in the US Europe must take some of it for being the pushers of slaves.

And I guess someone forgot to tell the Russians and Germans that slavery was outlawed because they both used it to their own ends in the 20th century.

moni kerr · Post by **moni kerr** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:25 am

NEON DEON

quote;

and, it says air superiority and superior mobility. I still dont see what is so hard to interpret from that part, unless of course english is not your native tounge. Then, I could see how you might mis-interpret that part. The sentence doesnt say that they might have (superior handling and air superiority). It says that it might allow them to win.

Reply;

You take a statement that is hypothetical and without any evidence turn it into a statement of fact. That requires a complete suspension of all the rules of logic and reasoning, so of course I can't understand it. Now if you could present a reasoned and logical argument with an objective evaluation of the evidence; that I could understand. I might not agree with you, but at least then we could have a rational debate.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:26 am

Originally posted by tsbond:
While this was a bleak time in US history please consider the fact that the Civil Nations you speak of are the very ones who rounded up the Africans and sent them to the US at a large profit. Although the US must hold most of the blame for Slavery in the US Europe must take some of it for being the pushers of slaves.

And as RickyB said, some of those same European countries considered helping the Confederacy, putting access to cotton, and their profits, over the elimination of slavery.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:02 am

There are two books I would highly recommend anyone who is interested in all these debates to read:
The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956. By Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn. ISBN 081333289-3. There are 2 Volumes.

Stalin
By Edvard Radzinsky
ISBN 0-385-479-54-9

These books opened up a world I did not know could even exist. Both are wrote by Russian's, and I trully could not put either down once I started reading. I can not think of a person who is even remotely as evil as Stalin and his cronies. I don't post this to Bash Russia I only do it because I think people should truly know the things that happened during this period and to see facts before they talk about things they think are correct.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:28 am

Ok since the election thing keeps coming up. If you know the United States you will know it is a Republic not a Democracy. Also the electoral votes are in place to insure that the lonely farmer in Iowa can have a fair voice in Presidential Elections. Otherwise the President would most likely be voted in to office by East Coast area and the West Coast no matter how the less populist states vote. I will not go in to a civics lesson but I will tell you the Constitution in my opinion is a Holy Relic and should not be tampered with by a bunch of fanatics that will be dead long before their greedy uncalled for changes still impact the United States generations from now.

Also in the News today an accounting firm hired by the left wing politics in the US recounted the votes in Florida and found only 48 more votes for Gore. Let it go.... President Bush won by all legal standards.

Another thing unlike most Countries across the Atlantic that start killing each other over way less debates then the US Presidential Election, we worked it out by the law in a judicial manner and found the rightful leader of this country. You may not like him you may hate him you may hate the Constitution and bylaws of this Nation, but you can not say that these men did not have an equal opportunity in court. With that said before you start spurting about the US Laws I think you should understand them and not post things that make no sense or have any basis in facts other then what ignorant twisted news media must force down your throat.

With all that said I think I answered everyone that responded to my post from last night and bashed a great Nation that is very good to me and my family for generations.

[This message has been edited by tsbond (edited February 26, 2001).]

Grisha · Post by **Grisha** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:46 am

tsbond,
About the United States of America, I'm glad you feel so happy about the country we live in. I honestly wish I could feel the same way. Enough said from this corner regarding that subject.

As for books on the Soviet Union, I think most people can vouch for the fact that this totalitarian regime had both horrendous work camps for anyone deemed 'unworthy', as well as a dictator whos cruelty was only exceeded by his paranoia. However, what people are not so aware of is the degree to which Russians were willing to die for their homeland, and even more importantly, the actual skill and focus that the Red Army systematically developed in order to defeat Germany. Good books on this are:

War in Russia, A.Werth - excellent read on both the big and small stories of the Soviet Union's war with Germany. This book does a terrific job at conveying what it meant to be a Soviet during this time. Written by a BBC journalist who lived in Moscow during this period.
When Titans Clashed, Col.D.Glantz - A comprehensive overview of the War in Russia, but from the Soviet perspective. Written with the help of both Soviet and German archives to better ascertain the truth of the war's conduct. Glatnz is one of the foremost historians on Soviet military studies, and like Erickson, speaks fluent Russian, a rare trait among western historian in this area.

There are also several series of books available through Frank Cass Pub. that are edited by Col.Glantz that cover the more theoretical and technical aspects of the Soviet art of war in WWII. These are definite eye-openers.

Finally, here is a quote from the book, Why the Allies Won by Richard Overy (he also wrote Russia's War, the book that became the catalyst for the PBS series of same name, though strangely the TV series was somewhat different from the book):

The law of the jungle might have assisted German fighting spirit in the Soviet campaign, but its moral effects were otherwise entirely negative. The criminalization of warfare produced a growing indiscipline and demoralization among German forces themselves. The German army shot fifteen thousand of their own number, the equivalence of a whole division. A further 23,000 were sentenced to long prison terms, and another 404,000 to shorter periods in prison or penal battalions. As a proportion of total mobilized manpower, these figures were higher than they were for the Red Army, 3.3 per cent against an estimated 1.25 per cent. Desertion or refusal to obey orders increased as the war went on, and the law of the jungle seeped into the military structure itself. The struggle for survival had a remorseless logic. The regime imposed ever more draconian terror on its own forces to keep them fighting until the very end of the war when Hitler, amidst the dying embers of his Reich, ordered any saboteur or deserter shot on the spot.

------------------
Best regards,
Greg Leon Guerrero