Aircraft Overpowered?

[Delphinium]

Reading an AAR today I come across

Germany, Winter 42: the season that all the penalties hit the Germans. Luckily, I've left myself in good shape. Another massive, massive bombing attack destroys all the defenders of Moscow, so I send in one infantry to take it. Moscow falls!

Airpower in a Russian winter totally destroying the combat effectiveness of the Russian defenders. Must look and check if the Germans didn'r really win at Stalingrad after all [;)]

[paullus99]

Totally depends on the tech of the aircraft, the supply situation (and manpower) of the Russians, and the # of germans attacking.

[Becket]

Um. It was a massive force. 4 tac air, 6 heavy bombers against 6 soviet (mixed inf and militia). Both my air types had their land attack increased.

Early in the game, if the Soviets haven't been researching inf. invasion, their infantry units are very brittle.

Also, note that this was the culmination of two turns - the prior turn I'd bombed them and sent in a large land force to take them out. The second turn they were surrounded and unsupplied.

[Delphinium]

My concern is that there were no real examples in WW2 of airpower destroying forces. It could reduce the effectiveness, but total destruction?
I know the argument about numbers of aircraft etc, but it still doesn't sit right as something suposed to closely resemble historical accuracy.
Or maybe it doesn't?

[Becket]

Okay. Go back and pretend I used Land forces to kill every thing there. I had so thoroughly overwhelmed that area that there was zero chance I wouldn't take the city with the massive amount of forces I had.

Keep in mind that you are only seeing snippets of the game through my eyes - and I've been playing since the summer and have a good handle on how to make devastating attacks.

Watch the other AAR to see my Soviets handle the Germans. I guarantee different results when I put AA & fighter cover in areas I want to defend.

Yes, an air unit can damage or destroy a land unit (remember, once a unit is damaged, it's off the board for repairs). See Paul's note below for why this is so. Certainly one could make it so that air units can't damage land units, but that would be a huge sacrifice of playability and fun factor. This was debated and discussed during testing. At some point you have to make cuts to have a fun game.

Anyway, net-net this happened due to my overwhelming defeat of Soviet forces. Believe me, we testers have spent a lot of time arguing over how best to preserve historical accuracy while keeping a fun game, and Joel & Co. have done a great job - listening where it made sense and shooting us down where it didn't.

[Paul Vebber]

You have to look at "losses" in the abstract in this game. The question is not "is it realistic that 10 air units killed 6 ground units" but whether a 6 month campaign by half the luftwaffe and half of teh Wehrmacht, against Moscow - 3 months of which it was surrounded , beseiged by a force over 3 times its size, would be enough to force it to capitulate without much o a fight (the troops deserting or surrendering).

Had there been 2 or 3 Flak unts and couple fighters, the Luftwaffe could have gotten a badly bloodied nose...Air can be incredibly fragile, and a resource hog constant repairing.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Had there been 2 or 3 Flak unts and couple fighters, the Luftwaffe could have gotten a badly bloodied nose...Air can be incredibly fragile, and a resource hog constant repairing.

Exactly. The lynchpin of this conquest happened the prior turn, when multiple armor and infantry assaulted Moscow and destroyed anything that had a chance to stop me.

[Joel Billings]

Planes can "kill" troops in WaW, especially when the troops have no AA or friendly fighter cover, although usually they are best at killing enemy artillery. This situation as described was the remnants of a force that had been cut off and taken a large number of casualites the previous turn (via air bombardment and a major land attack). With no supplies, no AA units or fighters, they were bombed by the equivalent of 5000 planes (about double the bombers the Luftwaffe started the war with). That this was enough to make the pocketed troops in question surrender is actually not surprising.

We do take liberties in allowing air units to hit land units since we have no suppression point system. However, in most cases, the air units will simply reduce the evasion of the defending units, making them more easily hit by ground units that are attacking (although as I've stated, air units are good at taking out enemy artillery).

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
We do take liberties in allowing air units to hit land units since we have no suppression point system. However, in most cases, the air units will simply reduce the evasion of the defending units, making them more easily hit by ground units that are attacking (although as I've stated, air units are good at taking out enemy artillery).

This is a point that's worth emphasizing. It was getting late last night so I didn't give full details on how I took Vladivostok. I did so by first sending a massive air attack at it - enough so that every defending unit would be fired upon. Very few if any Soviet troops were lost. Then, I send in the Japanese army, where they were able to score more kills due to the reduced evasion of the Soviet troops.

[a19999577]

I've seen that in several AARs Japan uses airpower to keep the size of the Chinese Army down. How historically accurate is that?

[mavraam]

However, in most cases, the air units will simply reduce the evasion of the defending units

I think that is actually a good abstraction of the suppression effect and spotting ability of aircraft.

[riley555a]

ORIGINAL: Delphinium

My concern is that there were no real examples in WW2 of airpower destroying forces. It could reduce the effectiveness, but total destruction?
I know the argument about numbers of aircraft etc, but it still doesn't sit right as something suposed to closely resemble historical accuracy.
Or maybe it doesn't?

Actually there is. In the battle of the bulge the only reason the germans were able to break through was because of the foggy and horrible weather and the allies could get no air support. But once the weather cleared up the allied fighter bombers were able to go in and they destroyed the german armor.

[riley555a]

ORIGINAL: Becket

Anyway, net-net this happened due to my overwhelming defeat of Soviet forces. Believe me, we testers have spent a lot of time arguing over how best to preserve historical accuracy while keeping a fun game, and Joel & Co. have done a great job - listening where it made sense and shooting us down where it didn't.

I was wondering. In this game, does the Russian winter affect troop well-being and movement etc? The winter is really what saved the Russians, the Germans were advancing non-stop, then the winter came and their tanks couldnt roll, alot of their artillery stopped working and there were more casualties and guys falling out because of the cold than actual fighting.

[SeaMonkey]

Man does this remind me of the many discussions on air power effectiveness we've had on the SC forum.

This is a grand scale, name me an instance when a corps size force was ever completely eliminated, in history, to the final....last man...no one escapes?

See this is an abstraction of the ability of an armed force to conduct combat operations effectively. When their effectiveness is neutralized they fail to be of any significance to the situation, but they are not completely destroyed. Later they reorganize or provide a cadre to a new combat formation.

Think about the Panzer Lehr division being carpet bombed at the beginning of Cobra. They weren't destroyed to the last man, the last piece of equipment, but they were reduced to an ineffective combat force. Now how long did it take for them to reform?

[Paul Vebber]

In this game, does the Russian winter affect troop well-being and movement etc?

Cold weather region in Winter turn = +1 to evasion rating - does not apply to Germans in the first winter following the invaison (note that in the gold game there is a bug that enforces this in the invasion turn, that will be fixed in teh first patch. For now players should agree not to invade in the Wi41 turn)

+1 if firing unit is a German during the first winter

-1 German unit in cold weather region in first winter.

So Russian troops get a +2 evasion modifier and the Germans a -1 in the first Russian winter

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: riley555

In this game, does the Russian winter affect troop well-being and movement etc?

In my opinion the First Winter (after invasion of Russia) rules are critical to Soviet survival. If they are able to launch large counterattacks against decent sized German forces during the first winter, they can cause devastating losses that the Germans can't afford. If not, either because their troops are not in the right places or the Germans are able to keep their units away from Soviet troop concentrations (while still holding a significant number of Soviet regions after the Winter turn), then the Germans have a good chance of knocking out the Soviets in the next year. I've seen cautious Soviet players get crushed because they didn't aggressively counterattack in winter and I've seen seemingly hopeless situations (where the Germans were pressing from the West while the Japanese were moving in from the east) be turned around due to great winter counterattacks against the Germans.

[riley555a]

Yea Seamonkey, but airpower and air superiority makes an enormous difference, you can't win without superiority of the air unless you're in a massive country like Russia, no matter how quickly you're able to reform. Fighter bombers had the ability to destroy hundreds of armored cars and tanks in a matter of days. Also another question for Joel, do the Russians have special divisions in this game that are designed to fight through extreme cold?

[Paul Vebber]

Also another question for Joel, do the Russians have special divisions in this game that are designed to fight through extreme cold?

No, Units are "abstracted" by the several types mentioned. You basically build "corps" of predominant unit type - milita, regular infantry, armor/mech, paratroops, artillery, flak, etc. All the units of a particular type have the same capabilities, that change through research.

[riley555a]

I see. Well thanks for the info. This game looks good i'm definetly gonna buy it.

[Becket]

Special winter units would not constitute any major component of the Soviet army in any event. Are you referring to the troops participating in the Petsamo operation?