Grossdeutschland division

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 10:56 pm

Grossdeutschland division was the SS division or not? In game it's not but I've readed memories one of the soldiers and the book was named SS div Grossdeutschland.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 11:14 pm

It is IIRC elite SS division.
Here is a brief history to anyone who is interested:

Formed as Infanterie Regiment "Grossdeutschland" on 14 Apr 1939.
Reformed as Infanterie Division (mot) "Grossdeutschland" on 17 Apr 1942.
Redesignated as Panzer Grenadier Division "Grossdeutschland" on 23 Jun 1943.
Reformed as Panzer Korps "Grossdeutschland" on 1 Nov 1944.
(from remnants of Pz.Gren.Div."GD" and Jaeger Div."Brandenburg")

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 11:17 pm

should be corrected in the game OOB

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 11:25 pm

It was not a SS division. It was an elite Heer division. It was assigned a strong tank unit when a panzergrenadier division, making it as strong as a normal panzer divisiion in tanks, and with 6 infantry battalions, I believe. But it was not SS.

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:25 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
It was not a SS division. It was an elite Heer division. It was assigned a strong tank unit when a panzergrenadier division, making it as strong as a normal panzer divisiion in tanks, and with 6 infantry battalions, I believe. But it was not SS.

I've tryed another search and found this:
http://tankclub.agava.ru/sign/sign.shtml

Looks like it's not

Vern · Post by **Vern** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 5:43 pm

Originally posted by Alexey:

I've tryed another search and found this:
http://tankclub.agava.ru/sign/sign.shtml

Looks like it's not

Indeed it´s not. G.D. is frequently mistaken for a SS unit because of ist SS-like name. Its unusual name derives fromt the fact the Heer wanted to have a unit which could compete with the prestigious SS units in terms of quality, quantity, and even some sort of "inspiring" name. G.D. was treated similar to units like L.A.H. or Das Reich in terms of replacements and equipment.

g00dd0ggy · Post by **g00dd0ggy** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 9:57 pm

There were quite a few Heer units like this I think - a couple that come to mind are Brandenburg, Panzer Lehr, Fuhrer Begleit (brigade only).........

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 10:11 pm

hmm...I was wrong about SS prefix. It is still elite division in game and as Ricky said it is Heer elite division. So it trains without combat to 90-94 experience.
In the history list which I had gave above it is clear that this unit was of regiment size until April'42 and only after that it was reformed to motorized infantry division.
But in Barbarossa scenario it is motorized from the very begining and has size of division. Should this be fixed?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 11:21 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
hmm...I was wrong about SS prefix. It is still elite division in game and as Ricky said it is Heer elite division. So it trains without combat to 90-94 experience.
In the history list which I had gave above it is clear that this unit was of regiment size until April'42 and only after that it was reformed to motorized infantry division.
But in Barbarossa scenario it is motorized from the very begining and has size of division. Should this be fixed?

I am going by memory here, so some details are probably wrong, but it had something like 5 battalions on June 22, 1941. It had its own tank unit and artillery, so it was basically a small division at this point in time. It was also as motorized as the regiments in panzer divisions were. Also, the game has no real capability to upgrade a unit from one size to another without it being hardcoded, so I think its current representation is okay. That is just my opinion on it, though.

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Wed Aug 01, 2001 3:12 pm

From what I remember of Panzer Campaigns: Smolensk it has shortly after the start of barabrossa: 1 recon battalion, 1 mixed tank battalion, 3 artillary battallions, 3 or 4 infantry battalions and I think a mixed AT/AA unit. It is basicly a reinforced brigade. It is in Smolensk called the GD brigade I believe.

Vern · Post by **Vern** » Thu Aug 02, 2001 11:40 am

Originally posted by g00dd0ggy:
There were quite a few Heer units like this I think - a couple that come to mind are Brandenburg, Panzer Lehr, Fuhrer Begleit (brigade only).........

The names you mention are more technical - "Führerbegleitbrigade" means "Brigade guarding the Führer" (which, in German, doesnt sound nearly as sexy as "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler"), "Panzer Lehr" is "Panzer Training" and "Brandenburg" just comes from the town where the unit was formed. The only Heer unit which I can currently think of with a "colorful" name would be "Hoch- and Deutschmeister", a mainly Austrian division whose name relates to some medieval origins.

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Thu Aug 02, 2001 1:25 pm

In short! The Grossdeutchland was NOT an SS-unit. It was strictly a Heer (Army) unit. I believe it's important to make a clear differense between SS- and Heer-units.

Regards, Rundstedt

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Thu Aug 02, 2001 2:25 pm

Hey Vern, what about the "Edelweiß-Division" (1. Gebirgsdivision)?
There are a lot of special names, given to the Divisions by their soldiers.

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:38 pm

BTW what's about 1st Cav Div, in campaign of 42 or 43 (don't remember exactly) there's 3rd Cav Div in Belorussia swamps and I kouldn't find 1st, what was it's history? (maybe someone knows

)

Gen. Maczek · Post by **Gen. Maczek** » Thu Aug 02, 2001 11:36 pm

Just a sidenote...There is a book called 'The Forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer who served with the Grossdeutschland Divison. One of the best personal accounts of the Eastern front I have read. Highly recomended!
Regards.
Gen. Maczek

rantakari · Post by **rantakari** » Fri Aug 03, 2001 1:52 am

Originally posted by Vern:

The only Heer unit which I can currently think of with a "colorful" name would be "Hoch- and Deutschmeister", a mainly Austrian division whose name relates to some medieval origins.

44th Infantry Division, IIRC. Not really an elite division, but a division with long history. Destroyed in Stalingrad, then reformed in 1943 as Reichs-Grenadier-Division "Hoch und Deutschmeister"

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:50 am

Colorful Heer unit names, or nicknames? Well, there's also the 116th "Windhund (Greyhound)" Pz Div, the 7th "Ghost" Pz Div, and my personal favorite, the 24th "Leaping Rider" Pz (formerly 1st Cavalry) Div.

g00dd0ggy · Post by **g00dd0ggy** » Fri Aug 03, 2001 10:09 am

Since someone mentioned Sajer's book, I thought I'd mention an incidednt he describes at the end of the war.

Grossdeutschland soldiers had sleeve bands with the divisional name on it, and in 1945 they ripped these off.

The reason? The only other divisions that had these sleeve bands were Waffen SS units, and they did not want to be mistaken for SS when taken prisoner.

So even at the time there was some confusion as to whether they were SS or not!

Vern · Post by **Vern** » Fri Aug 03, 2001 10:48 am

Originally posted by Gen. Maczek:
Just a sidenote...There is a book called 'The Forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer who served with the Grossdeutschland Divison. One of the best personal accounts of the Eastern front I have read. Highly recomended!
Regards.
Gen. Maczek

I fully agree with you! Sajer´s book is surely one the most impressive ones I´ve ever read about the Eastern Front (or war in general).

Vern · Post by **Vern** » Fri Aug 03, 2001 10:56 am

Originally posted by Frank:
Hey Vern, what about the "Edelweiß-Division" (1. Gebirgsdivision)?
There are a lot of special names, given to the Divisions by their soldiers.

"Edelweiß" is, of course, not an official name, although this name is especially well-known.
BTW, did you know that the navy had an "Edelweiß" sub? And the connection between this boat and the 1st Gebirgsdivision?
(For non-Germans: Edelweiß is a flower growing only in alpine regions, some sort of symbol for mountains.)