No Lan? No TCP/IP? E-Mail only?

[MantisMan]

My friends and I have been looking forward to this game for months; I got the game tonight, but luckily, read the small print before I got home and opened it: No TCP/IP? No LAN? And if we want to play on the interent, e-mail turns ONLY? [&:]

What a disapointment. I was able to return the game, and had to call all my friends tonight and give them the bad new [:(]

Re-cap the beer and put away the preztles. . [:(]

ANY chance regular LAN or Internet play will be available for this game in a future patch? It is the year 2005 after all. . .

[Erik Rutins]

MantisMan,

It may be available in the future, but we have no current plans for TCP/IP. 2by3 will be evaluating whether it's feasible within the next few weeks.

Did you try the game? Have you played PBEM? I have to tell you I think you made the wrong decision to not give it a try. TCP/IP is not perfect for every game, some do better with PBEM and the system is quick playing and not cumbersome.

Regards,

- Erik

[MantisMan]

No, if I "try" it, it's opened. And if it's opened, I can't return it. I and my 4 other gaming friends play on our LANs; at work and at our homes. We get together 2-5 times a month to play games on our LANs.

We HATE pirates, and if we like a game, we ALL buy it, so, sadly, you've lost 5 cutomers; well, at least till the LAN version comes out. . .

[aletoledo]

MantisMan, you're missing out on a great game. if you liked axis&allies, then you will like this one, no question.

after you've played it, you'll understand why its PBEM. the turns can last a very long time and a lot of it would not be able to be seen directly by other players (like production screens). even if they made it so you could watch the other player clicking on production screen icons, if you turned on Fog of War it would disable you from watching this. therefore you'd "watch" a motionless screen for 5-10 at a pop. multiply that by 4 and you can see how tedious it would be to spend 20-30 minutes waiting for your turn with a static picture on your monitor. not a real cliffhanger.

I can't imagine how the game could possibly be played as a LAN-TCP/IP kind of game and still retain the in-depth planning/strategy to it.

[MantisMan]

I can't imagine how the game could possibly be played as a LAN-TCP/IP kind of game and still retain the in-depth planning/strategy to it.

Hmmm, well, lets see, the same way people have been playing Age of Wonders; Imperialism; Civilization; Call to Power; Alph Centauri; (need I list ALL of the games?) and their like for the past 15 years.

We don't just "stare" at the screen, since we are all together in the same room, we talk, eat, banter, joke, ect. THAT'S what LAN play is for. Now what? We all get together to e-mail each other?

No, we are not missing out on a good game; THEY are missing out on a lot of good customers. . .

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

I have been watching this debate and would like to add my opinion to the mix.

ORIGINAL: MantisMan

We don't just "stare" at the screen, since we are all together in the same room, we talk, eat, banter, joke, ect. THAT'S what LAN play is for. Now what? We all get together to e-mail each other?

Actually, there is a particular game by another company that I play with my wife. We are in the same room. She is at her computer and I am at mine. We email the turns back and forth (or post the files to a shared folder). We have a great time!

The nice thing is that some of the gaming community build a java based application that watches for the files to be ready and sends them off to a server that notifies the other players in your group whos java app downloads the file and starts the game. Maybe that could be done here.

I have voiced my opinon about TCP/IP play in the World In Flames forum. I do not have the same opinion here. This game was specifically designed to be played by email. There are (apparently) no necessary interactions between the players during the turn. I am not sure it is needed. Of course, that is only my opinion.

The managers, designers, and programmers of this game will have to decide several things.

A : is it possible (i.e. are there any things about how the inner workings of the game behave that will make this unworkable)

B : is it feasable (i.e. will it be able to be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time based on the need)

C: is it profitable (i.e. finding the balance between making a subset of customers happier and making less money)

Management of this project has stated that they *are* going to investigate this. No more can be done at this time. Give them a chance to make an intelligent decision.

In the mean time, have an open mind. Try PBEM. You might like it. In fact, being able to play via e-mail will stop the insane problems that can occur when someone's firewall will not cooperate. Also, if you have multiple machines behind one firewall and someone else outside of it, you may have a *very* interesting time getting the router to route the right messages to the right computer.

I am not trying to flame anyone, but there seem to be lots of customers that are happy with this game. Don't let your aggravation over one missing feature keep you from enjoying one of the most anticipated wargames in several years. Gary Grigsby is the 'Sid Meier' of computer wargames. Try it, you might like it.

Sincerely and with friendship,

Dean

[MantisMan]

Ok Dean, lets pretend I did not take the game back: It's Friday night here, and after work, I and my 4 buds would have been playing this game on the work LAN for sure. Just HOW would we play it? All take turns on the same computer, while the other 4 of us stair at the ceiling? Then what? Mail the turns to where? We are all in the same room, we have ONE email account, do we send it to ourselves? Why should we have to go through all that silliness? I have not had to play a game that way since the early 90s.

I promise you, if there was LAN play, unless there was gamekiller bugs, there's a good chance all my buds would have ran out tommorow and bought this game too; now, none of us will purchase it. Lan/TCP is not just a casual "option" it's a VERY important and "standard" option in multiplayer games, thus, the name "multiplayer".

[Erik Rutins]

MantisMan,

For what it's worth, I've played MPBEM games over a LAN before when I haven't had a remote opponent but didn't want to "hotseat". The best workaround I've found involves a little work, not much really.

Set up a shared directory that all computers see. Map it to all computers as the same drive letter. Create a small batch file that copies save files from the local save directory to the mapped drive. Create a shortcut that runs the batch file. Create another one that copies it from the mapped drive to the local drive. Create a shortcut for that one too.

Run GGWaW in windowed mode. Whenever your turn is finished, double click the shortcut to run the file. Tap the next player on the shoulder, they double click the shortcut to copy the file down and start their turn. When they're done, they use the shortcut to copy the turn up to the mapped drive, etc. It's not particularly elegant, but it works and is less of a hassle than e-mailing things around.

Regards,

- Erik

[MantisMan]

Thank you for that suggestion Erik, but if it is all that easy to make this game play using e-mail on a LAN, then why did'nt they just make it that way in the first place? If doing your suggested "fix" would be easy for us, it would be child's-play for the Devs, right?

I have another question: IF we got this, do we HAVE to use your particular server to send turns, or can we just use regular e-mail accounts?

[artgrtr8u]

MantisMan,
You're right, it is disappointing that there's no LAN capability, but all those who say you're missing out on a good game are right as well.
Maybe you and your friends could use the PBEM features to fill in the gaps when you're not playing in the same room. If the getting together and having the gaming "jam session" is what's really important then, yeah, don't bother with this game. But if being able to play what so far seems to be a real quality war game is important, then get it for the down-times.

One thing I'm not sure anybody mentioned about doing PBEM on a LAN is the extra time and annoyance of having to constantly close the game and load a new save game.

[MantisMan]

Well, after hearing from people trying to get us to try this game reguardless of it's multiplayer-unfriendliness, we decided to try out the demo; but there is no demo [&:]

Could anybody please answer our question: Do you have to play on a specifice server, or can you send turns just using regular e-mail?

[Paul Vebber]

You can send the turns any way you want - regular email - P2P, whatever. Its just a file - any way you can exchange it is fine!

[Gullet]

As I am definitely on MantisMan's side on this matter (although having bought the game) I disagree that it is not playable over TCP/IP. In my feedback to Matrix/2by3 I will be sure to mention this AGAIN.

This sadly leads me back to the issue on retail release (which I have not bothered about earlier) there are a few things with it that just don't add up. As opposed to other fanatics on the board, I actually do not mind waiting a couple of weeks in order for you to execute the distribution idea. The things that don't add up with it are:

1. Lack of TCP/IP support
2. Untested tutorial
3. Unsynchronized world release

1. To my understanding the reason for going retail was to gain exposure to both the likes of EB Games AND potential new wargamers - I guess including RTS and FPS players as well as the occasional game buyer. How can you seriously expect to lure any of these wargame non-afficionados when you don't even have the "wrappíng" to begin with - it is like saying you're going to make a big effort on the UK car market but insisting you have the stearing on the left side... To anybody not already blessed (and also rather a few wargamers) the lack of TCP/IP just screams stone age. It DOESN'T matter if TCP/IP is preferable or not once you play the game - if nobody buys nobody will ever know. So instead of possibly teaching a few that PBEM works fine, YOU are the ones learning by nobody buying.

2. The next obstacle to the wargame newbies would be when they want to throw themselves in headlong, by using the tutorial. The tutorial, it turns out, needs everything to be set and executed perfectly in order not to f**k up (including actually changing default settings on production control). Again it DOESN'T matter if there is an easy fix to it - the easiest fix is that you don't have to fix it as a player. So this delivers a bad first impression of the game - this happened to me and I was an easy sell!

3. From the forums I understood that Matrix preferred buyers to pick up the boxed retail version in order to get a good flow through retail and thereby exposing the game to both employees at game stores, but of course also to customers walking by. Now, you lost a LOT of that free exposure in RoW, i.e. non-North America, as your European distribution has not come on yet. Seriously, I waited patiently on you guys and was aiming for a boxed copy to help you out, but then suddenly in my face, the European full distribution is due in a couple of...months! Hence, digitial download for me.

Seriously, you have f**ked up on this one, and you deserve a good bashing for it. From the outside it seems as the person responsible for marketing should no longer be so, and never should have. Just common sense and if you don't have it, how are you supposed to convince the commoners...?

G

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: MantisMan

Lan/TCP is not just a casual "option" it's a VERY important and "standard" option in multiplayer games, thus, the name "multiplayer".

I think a lot of the trouble is that as far as turn-based wargames go, it is neither particularly important (in terms of numbers that would use it) or "standard", although that doesn't mean none support it, of course. None of the regular posters here (from which I assume the beta testers are drawn also) were particularly bothered by its absence, whereas even if there's the threat of a game not including PBEM all hell tends to break loose.

It seems (and to my surprise, I admit) that the demand for LAN play is greater than the developers and Matrix thought... which in a way at least is a good thing as it shows an interest in WaW rather broader than perhaps is usual for Matrix Wargames. Hopefully the feature will be included in a patch.

[Franky513]

It may be available in the future, but we have no current plans for TCP/IP. 2by3 will be evaluating whether it's feasible within the next few weeks.

Well, I want to say again that I also really would like to see a LAN option in WAW in near future. I hope that you'll add this in a patch this summer.

Ciao Frank

[Erik Rutins]

Gullet,

Your thoughts (and those of others) have been heard. A few comments in respone:

ORIGINAL: Gullet
1. To my understanding the reason for going retail was to gain exposure to both the likes of EB Games AND potential new wargamers - I guess including RTS and FPS players as well as the occasional game buyer. How can you seriously expect to lure any of these wargame non-afficionados when you don't even have the "wrappíng" to begin with - it is like saying you're going to make a big effort on the UK car market but insisting you have the stearing on the left side... To anybody not already blessed (and also rather a few wargamers) the lack of TCP/IP just screams stone age. It DOESN'T matter if TCP/IP is preferable or not once you play the game - if nobody buys nobody will ever know. So instead of possibly teaching a few that PBEM works fine, YOU are the ones learning by nobody buying.

TCP/IP is not the holy grail. As much as it is viewed as a more modern way to play a game, that's mainly because most "modern" games are FPS or RTS types that are designed to lend themselves to that play. Most turn-based games work better by PBEM and it was left out of the design, by design. As a counter-example, in the case of the upcoming Crown of Glory Napoleonic game, the game's design is meant for TCP/IP play. It includes it, but PBEM was left out by design since it is less suitable. This has many PBEM players up in arms as well and in order to support PBEM, the developer will likely be removing part of the game for PBEM play in a post-release update. The same type of thing may have to happen here if TCP/IP support is added.

We realize that to some gamers TCP/IP support is the most important new feature we could add to GGWaW and we are taking that into account, but please realize this is not the same as saying "Germany needs more population" or "Fix this graphics glitch". Adding TCP/IP play is a major, major design addition that will require significant resources and likely delay some other plans for the series as a result, if it goes forward.

2. The next obstacle to the wargame newbies would be when they want to throw themselves in headlong, by using the tutorial. The tutorial, it turns out, needs everything to be set and executed perfectly in order not to f**k up (including actually changing default settings on production control). Again it DOESN'T matter if there is an easy fix to it - the easiest fix is that you don't have to fix it as a player. So this delivers a bad first impression of the game - this happened to me and I was an easy sell!

Please elaborate - as far as I know, the tutorial works fine on the default settings that exist when the game is installed. It was tested and it's advised that players play the tutorial first. I believe it also mentions on the entry screens that you should set to defaults if you are not at the default settings.

3. From the forums I understood that Matrix preferred buyers to pick up the boxed retail version in order to get a good flow through retail and thereby exposing the game to both employees at game stores, but of course also to customers walking by. Now, you lost a LOT of that free exposure in RoW, i.e. non-North America, as your European distribution has not come on yet. Seriously, I waited patiently on you guys and was aiming for a boxed copy to help you out, but then suddenly in my face, the European full distribution is due in a couple of...months! Hence, digitial download for me.

Though we still launched the digital download simultaneous with the retail release so that European and other non-North American customers would have a way to get the game from the first day. In fact, in some cases the download was available before some stores fully distributed their retail stock.

With that said, we're very disappointed as well that we could not work this out with the partners we were in discussions with in Europe earlier. This is an unfortunately unavoidable instance where despite planning, we have to rely on the timelines and schedules of other companies rather than those we would prefer in a vacuum.

Regards,

- Erik

[Gullet]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Please elaborate - as far as I know, the tutorial works fine on the default settings that exist when the game is installed. It was tested and it's advised that players play the tutorial first. I believe it also mentions on the entry screens that you should set to defaults if you are not at the default settings.

Well, it has been a number of days now and several more games and fortunately/unfortunately I was not able to reproduce the fault, but it had to do with the game sort of stalling/leaving you with nothing possible to do (and it was not the airlift). To my recollection it was in the first tutorial, however, guess work does not help anybody so I'll just have to leave it there. If I get round to looking into it again I'll be sure to inform you in more detail.

/G

[ravinhood]

Hmmm, well, lets see, the same way people have been playing Age of Wonders; Imperialism; Civilization; Call to Power; Alph Centauri; (need I list ALL of the games?) and their like for the past 15 years.

A "handful" of people play those games online. Hardly worth the resources actually to make them multiplayer online. PBEM is the wave of the future. It is 2005 yah know? I've been to all the sites that host those games you mentioned and it would be a miracle to see over 10 players the majority of time playing those games online. And LAN isn't that popular either. I'll agree with a "hotseat" mode if they are so inclined, but, I've never required or needed a LAN or multiplayer online feature with any of those games. Be better if they put more resources into creating and tweaking the existing AI and make sure PBEM is cheat proof.

As Paul Vebber would say, you're just being a "NIT-WIT" threatening not to buy the game because, because, because. lol Matrixgames will live without your five little sales, IF there really are 5 little sales or rather just one pretending he is five different people. lol

[Joel Billings]

In an ideal world where we have infinite resources we would have the following:

1) TCP/IP/LAN
2) A more robust tutorial that allowed you to try different things and would get you back on track if you fell off.
3) A worldwide simultaneous release in multiple languages.

It would have been great if we could have done all of these things. In their various ways they would have increased the sales of GGWaW and increased the number of new customers we would have picked up that wouldn't normally look at a serious wargame. We don't begrudge anyone that wants to play a game in a particular way, or those that would like some more help when trying to learn a new game.

We do not have infinite resources (nor does Matrix). We are looking into number 1 to see what it will take and need to balance those costs with what will be gained. We will try to fix any obvious problems with the tutorial (like France not falling), but are unable to change it's basic structure as a tutorial that forces the user to keep to the specific actions requested. We expect eventually that the game will be released at retail and in multiple languages in many countries outside of North America. We built the game from the beginning with ease of localization in mind as we felt this game would appeal to many gamers throughout the world.

If I could wave a magic wand and get all 3 things above, I'd do it.

[David Heath]

......and I would want to buy that magic wand from you Joel [:D]

but serious guys all of your business is important to Matrix. We do not want to have anyone not be happy with our games. We are looking into the Lan/TCP-IP play and if its possible to do within our budget God knows we will attempt to do it. As always guy keep posting your comments as we are always listening.

David