Originally posted by JustAGame:
While I loathe the problems associated with the auto-reinforcement feature of the game, I am bit confused as to the goal here. If the purpose is to render infantry divisions as ineffective while in panzer groups, then can someone please show how this is historically more accurate than the system of readiness penalties that Gary Grigsby already included in the game or even demonstrate how this would make the game more historically accurate.
The readiness penalty imposed by Gary amounts to only a 15% readiness difference between an infantry division and mechanized divisions in a panzer corps after a 5 plot movement. Currently, an infantry division still provides 27% of itself to combat in the 5th plot of a panzer corps movement/combat. The motorized units have readiness in the 50% to 60% range, so the 27% of the inf div is significant. Neither one of these penalties is sufficient.
By looking at the history of just one German infantry division, I see that the 44.Infanterie-Division advanced an average of 29 kilometers per day while fighting over the period of 18 days (this was during the advance on Krakow and included crossing the Vistula River). This same infantry division was a component of the 1st Panzer Army's 3rd Panzer Korps during Barbarosa.
There are several infantry divisions assigned to panzer corps in ' 41. That doesn't mean they are up front with the motorized divisions during the deep penetrations. As moonfog suggests these divisions may have been "dropped off" to take up defensive positions to hold the breakthrough openings and/or the motorized divisions' rear. For all we know, the panzer armies created infantry corps for the infantry divisions that were assigned to them, or used the infantry as independent units, the WiR equivalent of an infantry corps with one infantry division in it.
As the readiness penalties already have a dramatic effect on the combat capabilties of an infantry division advancing the full movement plot of a panzer group, wouldn't more penalties result in a less realistic game?
My first paragraph makes it clear the effect of the readiness penalty is far from dramatic, it is in fact minor.
Do we agree that a foot-bound infantry division should not physically be able to arrive in the 5th square after a 5 square movement of a panzer corps with the mechanized divisions? If we agree with that, then we should either prevent non-motorized units from being added to panzer corps, or assess a movement penalty on panzer corps which have non-motorized divisions in them prior to movement, or apply a strong readiness penalty for non-motorized divisions in a panzer corps so they do not contribute to combat after 2 or 3 squares of movement. As I said earlier, the current penalties are not sufficient.
Again, I agree that the auto-reinforcement feature has problems and should be corrected. But, I am not convinced that Gary made a mistake with his treatment of infantry divisions in panzer groups.
Then you're probably the only one in this thread who believes so, except maybe Don (Don? should infantry move as fast and as far as motorized divisions?). I haven't seen anyone who says an unmotorized infantry division should be able to keep up with motorized divisons for a full 5 square movement, much less provide combat assistance to motorized units after 4 squares of movement followed by combat.
Considering historical references that seem consistant with the manner in which the game handles infantry divisions in panzer groups, is there something else that I am not understanding?
Your historical reference of the 44th is interesting. 29 kilometers is ~20 miles and in WiR a square is about ~20 miles across, so given a WiR turn of 7 days, this adds up to a non-motorized unit moving 7 squares in WiR in one turn while fighting!
Now, either there is something wrong with the accuracy of this statement about the 44th (I doubt it), or the unit was motorized at the time and the opposition was light (there is one reference I found that makes me suspect it might have been motorized; but even then I doubt this explanation as well), or Gary's WiR is flawed in terms of corps movement, and the whole time/distance/speed thing is screwed up (looks like it).
More importantly though, I know of two references concerning the breakout in Operation Cobra and Patton's 3rd Army's race to the Rhine. Two references to speed are made: 40 miles per day, and 50 miles per day. Since the 20 mile per day reference is mentioned as an amazing feat for the 44th, its highly unlikely it could have gone any faster. So clearly, motorized units could move twice as fast than the 44th. Thus the fundamental speed balance (2 to 1) between non-motorized units and motorized units is still in force.
Anyway, if we accept 20 miles per day for infantry, thus 7 square movement for an infantry corps in a turn, then we must assign 18 squares per turn movement for motorized corps! Interestingly, this may mean WiR is very unrealistic about corps movement vis-a-vis the map scale, yet it is/was balanced correctly as evidenced by the German advance, in WiR games that use the historical strategy, being stopped along historical lines, give or take a couple of squares.
I'm interested in more info about this. Does anybody have other evidence about the speed of advance by a
CORPS sized unit in WWII?
[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>
