Operation Husky

[PeterF]

I set up as the WA in Su 43 and noticed that the Axis had left no forces in Sicily. The Allies just waltz in and expel the generic area garrison, bing badda boom. IRL, this was a brief, bitter campaign featuring George Patton, the Hermann Goering division and 15,000+ Allied casualties. Something seems terribly amiss here.[8|]

[Dalwin]

In most strategic WWII games, Sicily is given no strategic importance whatsoever. That is certainly the case in WaW.

It think it is bad German play to even leave the one garrison that starts there. He can easily be sent somewhere more useful.

I have seen a few games where Allied occupation of Sicily is a prerequisite for Italian surrender. Such a rule gives the Axis some reason to fight for it.

Games on a smaller scale give Sicily some importance for extending air range in the region or interfering with naval movement. On the scale of WaW, those things just don't factor in.

[Joel Billings]

Sicily is not unimportant in GGWaW. It does extend the range of your planes based there so they can more easiliy bomb Africa than those in Southern Italy. Also, it causes an Interdiction point for ships moving past it. Not huge, but at least there is some value to it.

[dulsin2]

I had forgotten about the interdiction for sicily.

Now we have a place to base the Itallian air and cover the N African supply lines.

[Pocus]

so no plan Joel to harden a bit the condition of Italian surrender? I bet I can make Italy surrender in 1940 everytime again the German AI as of now. [:(]

[Dalwin]

I liked the way SPI's War in Europe handled Italian surrender. You had to drive them out of Africa, take either Sardinia or Sicily, and then land on the Italian mainland.

[batou]

The rules for Italian surrender are fine when playing germany against the AI. However, when a human controls the WAllies - it might be too easy to get Italy to surrender. I don't know, I just started my first PBEM as the allies. We'll see...

-jim

[Pocus]

good suggestion Dalwin. I would say at least there must not be Italian in Africa & either one of the 2 Italian main provinces shall be taken. This prevent a raid in 40/41. (IMHO)

[PeterF]

Sicily is not unimportant in GGWaW. It does extend the range of your planes based there so they can more easiliy bomb Africa than those in Southern Italy.

Surely, at this point of the war, in 1943, the principal strategic consideration is the range of the Allied airpower into Italy rather than Axis airpower into Africa. I'm a bit hazy how island sub-areas work in WaW, but a factor, I believe, in the conception of the Husky operation was advancing, incrementally, Allied airfields closer to the Italian mainland in preparation for the invasion of the mainland. Are Allied planes more effective operating out of Sicily than Tunisia? Otherwise I see litttle German incentive for defending the island.

Historically, the Germans were able to evacuate 100,000 men and 50+ Tiger tanks from the island in the teeth of Allied naval superiority. I don't know if this possible in the 43 scenario. Maybe, Sicily should be considered as Italy's southern most contiguous land area rather than an island. As it exists, the Sicilian Defense option seems little better than a beartrap for the Axis.

[Joel Billings]

Sicily is connected by ferry to the mainland so you should be able to retreat back. Gary is working on making the AI garrison Italy better (for the second patch). As for toughening up the Italian surrender rules, we haven't given thought to that yet. It is something we could consider down the road I suppose if needed. This would need some additional coding. Feel free to suggest a possible rule change here, but try to keep it as simple as possible. The more involved the rule the less chance that it would happen. And I'm making no promises that a change will happen. Also, keep in mind the AI will not easily play to maximize the rule (you have to assume to start it won't be aware of any new rule), so if it's the AI you are worried about, you need to keep this in mind.

[QBeam]

I think the simplest and most realistic option, given the limitations you mention, are to have a two-out-of-three condition for Italian surrender:

1) Allied control of N. Italy
2) Allied control of S. Italy
3) Axis do not control any African area

[PeterF]

Feel free to suggest a possible rule change here, but try to keep it as simple as possible.

Italian surrender= 1 mainland area + Sicily. It may be too late to compel the AI to defend the island with tenacity but this implementation improves PBEM.

Side Note: Japan surrenders when she loses Honshu but German can forfeit East Germany (Berlin) and continue the struggle. Does this strike anybody as implausible? Hitler in Bonn? Hmm...

[Pocus]

Well if Tokyo fall, you can think that the Emperor is captured, as he would not have left the capital I think, but the Japanese would have defended the city will all the bodies they can muster.