BARBAROSSA:variant B

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:35 am

Hi all

I while back there was mention of playing the '41 campaign with all the Axis armour in the center, the aim was to take Moscow. I decided to try it.
I reorganised and rationalised the Axis forces with all but the allied armour ready to roll 'round the north side of the swamps.
My opponent left some border guards but from what i could see most of his forces were on the Dnepr and in front of Moscow.

22 June41 to start of German 5 Oct41 turn

The Axis crash into the first serious resistance at the end of July and the great mass of Pz Korps simply drives into the soviet defences (that are now 3 lines thick) and tries to keep up with the edge of the supply net. The Soviet has done a good job and it takes the entire Luftwaffe in support to allow the armour to push forward. Leningrad falls to an axis rush in early Sept.

Axis 5 Oct turn

The first Mud turn. The Axis stand within 2 hexes of Moscow in the center and directly N/W to Tikhvin. The line S/W of Moscow takes in Smolensk and then follows the Dnepr all the way south past Kiev(taken). 98% of the Axis armour is now north of Smolensk and the Luftwaffe is strong and well trained. The Soviet has double lines in the center and is still strong.
Losses to date.
Axis S-5850 T-2850 G-1907 A-2144
Soviets S-32400 T-5900 G-14300 A-13500

12 Oct41 Mud.
19 Oct 41 Snow. Germans take 2 hexes next to Moscow.
26 Oct Mud.
2 Nov Mud.
9 Nov Mud.

16 November '41

Snow.
Pz Korps 41 and 56 crash into Moscow with 5000 planes in support. After 5 attacks the Axis roll into the city and Stalin decides to stand at the Kremlin. The soviet leader is killed in combat on 22nd Nov.
It is my duty to inform you that when our leader was told of the fall of Moscow and the death of Stalin he collapsed and was pronounced dead soon after.
As acting commander of the Reich i have initiated a ceasefire proposal to the temporary Soviet Gov'nt involving the return of large tracts of captured land in return for an end to hostillities so rashly begun by Herr Hitler.
It is my belief that the conflict with the west can also be resolved in our favour and your new leaders will strive to bring peace and prosperity to Germany and her aliies.

Yours. Commander of the Greater German Reich

Kesselring.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:15 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
Hi all

I while back there was mention of playing the '41 campaign with all the Axis armour in the center, the aim was to take Moscow. I decided to try it.
I reorganised and rationalised the Axis forces with all but the allied armour ready to roll 'round the north side of the swamps.
.

Yes, I think you are right, is very effective. One player make this strategy against me and I was not able to hold Leningrad and Moscow. We stopped the game in november due Blizzard bug. But the lack of armour in the south did I can held Kiev.For the winter Im prepared an attack to Romania ( to try surrender the country or distact forces ) and to Minsk to out of supply the AGC (the main objective). As you can see He puts all forces forward Moscow and left the flanks weaks. We no continue the game so I dont know exactly the danger of this strategy and the posible aftermath. The german plays only one card: a decisive victory in 1941. If fails to do so will be more difficult to win in 42.

Josan.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 12:29 pm

Josan

As the Axis i thought of one thing only and bent all assets to that task, take Moscow. Leaving the south in Soviet hands is a by-product of this.
May i point out that thinking ahead to the blizzard was not indulged in as this has nothing to do with taking Moscow.

Nick

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:19 pm

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
Josan

As the Axis i thought of one thing only and bent all assets to that task, take Moscow. Leaving the south in Soviet hands is a by-product of this.
May i point out that thinking ahead to the blizzard was not indulged in as this has nothing to do with taking Moscow.

Nick

Im only speaking of my experience playing against this strategy. There is a real possibility to conquer Moscow theres no doubt, but the soviets can manage to retake the city. In my game I had a powerful reserve due to the low losses in the south. This units were resting for the coming winter offensive. So I think that if germans conquers Moscow but no destroy the soviet army the german will face a long winter. Indeed take Moscow is very important but not decisive. In fact in my game, when i saw all panzer divisions in Moscow Front I began to transfer the factories ( I thought Moscow surely would falls)so the loss of the capital was lesser.

Josan.

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:33 pm

interesting.
with the transferred factories it would be possible to play on. without them which I did not, surrender was a better alternative, although the southern offensive was planned and beginning with blizzards.
An earlier beginning would have been logical but the readiness penalties on the Soviet side make that impossible.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 2:51 am

What is the Blizzard Bug?????

BTW this was a long since recommended tactic (from the 1st version of Second Front) to force a decision in 1941. Moscow will usually fall, but the other noted negative "side" effects make this a risky move and one that does not guarantee success.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 2:54 am

one could combine this with Lorenzo's "unlimited Pz Korps" (it's Korps not division Lorenzo). Put all the "real" PZ Korps in AG Center and make up the 4 extra "fake" PZ Korps in AG south to get up to Kiev. Wether or not Kiev will fall without strong forces is up for debate.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:51 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
What is the Blizzard Bug?????

The germans units shattered easily against russian attacks. When you have more readiness in the units there are a more chance to shatter. Level of entrenchement I think is ignored and no matter the strong you have the corps. Usually you can see the soviets smash the germans in blizzard weather. Play against IA you will see the effects.

Josan.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:05 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
one could combine this with Lorenzo's "unlimited Pz Korps" (it's Korps not division Lorenzo). Put all the "real" PZ Korps in AG Center and make up the 4 extra "fake" PZ Korps in AG south to get up to Kiev.

Lorenzo no needs "fake" Pz corps to get Kiev or to defeat you.

Wether or not Kiev will fall without strong forces is up for debate.

Well, I would send the 1st Panzer Group to conquer Kiev and make a bridgehead. This can me maked to the end of july or beginning of August.
Once I cross the river I split the army leaving 2 weakly panzer Korps ( with panzer divisions of course) to help the infantry and make encirclements in the south. The strongest panzer divisions to MOscow.

Josan

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:27 am

So, was the blizzard bug fixed or was it a "design feature" of WiR??

Units in cities were supposed to be protected from blizzard effects, was this also broken in the game??

I have no doubt that Lorenzo has several tricks up his sleeve, most of them not historically realistic. Remind me never to get into a PBEM game with either of you...

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 9:14 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
So, was the blizzard bug fixed or was it a "design feature" of WiR??

Units in cities were supposed to be protected from blizzard effects, was this also broken in the game??

I have no doubt that Lorenzo has several tricks up his sleeve, most of them not historically realistic. Remind me never to get into a PBEM game with either of you...

Mike Santos,

The blizzard bug is supposed to be fixed in the next patch. The way it currently works is,during the blizzard of 1941/42, the game divides the German combat value by 4 in 1941 and by 2 in 1942. The problem is, losses are computed from the actual combat value and deducted from the reduced combat value. If the German target unit has used special supply to get a high combat value, many times the losses exceed the actual reduced combat value so when the game checks to see if the unit sould retreat or shatter there is a zero value for remaining strength and the unit shatters automatically. This is counterintuitive and many unsuspecting players have large numbers of units that they were giving special supply shatter in the blizzard of 1941. The problem isn't so bad in the 1942 turns and the effect goes away for the winter of 1942/43.

Svar

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 9:35 am

A couple of further items on the blizzard effects. The blizzards actually affect the readiness of the unit rather than the combat value, with a minimum level of 25%. That is why a unit at 40% readiness probably won't have much of a problem, as it is only being dropped to 25%, while a unit at 80% will most likely have problems. As Svar said, the losses based on full readiness are taken from this 25% readiness adjusted strength. Cities do not help this issue or eliminate the effect.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 2:55 pm

Originally posted by Mike Santos:

I have no doubt that Lorenzo has several tricks up his sleeve, most of them not historically realistic. Remind me never to get into a PBEM game with either of you...

I dont know why I have to remind you anything. Sure you remind yourself. But you are wrong We dont make unhistorical movements and we dont need any cheat to win.

In this moment I have no time to play another game but I would like show you in the future my tactics. You would see that are historical and also you would see your own defeat. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Dont judge the people so easily. You can be wrong.

Josan " the Korp " <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

jager506 · Post by **jager506** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 3:24 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svar:

The problem is, losses are computed from the actual combat value and deducted from the reduced combat value. If the German target unit has used special supply to get a high combat value, many times the losses exceed the actual reduced combat value so when the game checks to see if the unit sould retreat or shatter there is a zero value for remaining strength and the unit shatters automatically. This is counterintuitive and many unsuspecting players have large numbers of units that they were giving special supply shatter in the blizzard of 1941.

Talk about counterintuitive. That happened to me big time in my 1st ever PBEM game as Germans. Any idea whether this bug/glitch will be fixed in the next version? Thanks!

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:36 pm

Originally posted by Mike Santos:

I have no doubt that Lorenzo has several tricks up his sleeve, most of them not historically realistic. Remind me never to get into a PBEM game with either of you...

Mike

Tricks.. He used that air supply one on me to get Leningrad in a '42 game. Tricks did'nt prevent me stomping his Caucasus attack though.

Nick

PS Lorenzo may read this when he returns from the Cote d'azure, i'll get an earfull.

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 6:47 pm

Originally posted by Chimera:

Talk about counterintuitive. That happened to me big time in my 1st ever PBEM game as Germans. Any idea whether this bug/glitch will be fixed in the next version? Thanks!

Yes and no. The decision was made to reduce the Axis penalty to 1/2 instead of 1/4, so the basic mechanics are unchanged. Unfortunately, this will make the Soviet attacks harder to carry out, although it does greatly limit the shatter events. Maybe in the future it can be changed further if this does not work well - what I kind of liked was to keep at least part of the current method, but only for units with entrenchment under 3 and not in cities. This would encourage an early stop to Barbarrosa to dig in, which seems historical. Dug in Germans should be less susceptible to blizzards in 1941, I think.

VictorH · Post by **VictorH** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:42 pm

Yes, it would be more historical for the Germans to dig in during the winter and be punished if they didn't. Recall that Hitler forbid retreats!

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 6:35 am

What about the 10% loss in infantry squads in the 1941/42 blizzard turns for units not in cities/towns? Is that still in effect? That rule was the biggest loss to German infantry strength in 1941/42, where some times I would see the average division go from 240 to 140 squads over the winter even if it wasn't in combat. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 7:03 am

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
What about the 10% loss in infantry squads in the 1941/42 blizzard turns for units not in cities/towns? Is that still in effect? That rule was the biggest loss to German infantry strength in 1941/42, where some times I would see the average division go from 240 to 140 squads over the winter even if it wasn't in combat. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Mike Santos,

The infantry loss has been reduced to 2% or 3% and it only occurs during the 1941 blizzard turns.

Svar